16:02:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
16:02:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/17-aria-at-irc
16:02:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:02:28 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
16:02:46 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
16:02:53 <Matt_King> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/June-17%2C-2026-Agenda
16:02:54 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:02:54 <agendabot> agenda+ Review agenda and next meeting dates
16:02:54 <agendabot> agenda+ Current interop reporting status
16:02:54 <agendabot> agenda+ Update on infra engineering training
16:02:54 <agendabot> agenda+ Draft review of minimal data grid test plan
16:02:57 <agendabot> agenda+ Migrating resources Next Steps
16:02:59 <agendabot> agenda+ AT Driver Next Step
16:03:47 <Joe_Humbert> present+
16:03:53 <Matt_King> present+
16:04:05 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt King
16:04:17 <Matt_King> agenda?
16:04:42 <Matt_King> zakim, take up next item
16:04:42 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Review agenda and next meeting dates -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:53 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
16:04:56 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
16:06:07 <jugglinmike> present+ dean
16:07:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any requests for changes to the agenda?
16:07:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as planned
16:08:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next CG meeting: Wednesday July 1
16:08:13 <jugglinmike> zakim, take up next item
16:08:13 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Current interop reporting status -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:08:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There aren't any meaningful updates in the overall status of test plans since the previous meeting
16:09:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm working on figuring out what we will test after the data grid
16:09:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I do want to get the rating radio button out of the queue, and I'm looking at the issues associated with that
16:09:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm trying to figure out how readily-resolvable those are--by just me, or with input from others (and who)
16:10:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is partly due to a bandwidth issue right now. I'm not sure how quickly I can keep test plans coming. I would like to have a minimum of one test plan for people to be working on at any given time
16:11:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If anyone would like to become an expert in writing test plans, it's quite an investment, but it's not super-technical for people who know all three screen readers. The editing is done in CSV files. Scripts use those files to generate JSON (so you don't need to edit JSON directly)
16:11:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If anyone wants to advance to another level in this work, I'm open to training people on writing test plans!
16:11:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They don't all have to be for complicated APG patterns, by the way. We could also use simpler test plans for basic HTML and ARIA features
16:11:47 <jugglinmike> Zakim, take up the next item
16:11:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up the next item', jugglinmike
16:12:03 <jugglinmike> Zakim, take up next item
16:12:03 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Update on infra engineering training -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:12:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For the data grid, Joe_Humbert has completed JAWS and NVDA
16:12:41 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: That's right
16:13:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I saw you raised some issues in both, and I've responded to those
16:14:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The issue that is related to JAWS forms mode versus PC cursor. The output in the response edit fields--is that the output from the bot?
16:14:35 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I didn't have to edit any output at all
16:14:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Got it. So if Vispero runs it with the bot, they will get the same results
16:14:51 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Right
16:15:14 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Is this representative of what users would expect? I don't know many users who will exit out of forms mode into PC mode within a data grid
16:15:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think it happens quite a lot for people who have to use data grids
16:15:37 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I understand if its happening automatically, but I don't think users would manually exit out of forms mode
16:16:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: A surprising number of users are. But a lot of these grids are getting wrapping in the "application" role, which does the same thing. That's how Google Sheets works.
16:16:21 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Ah, so if it's wrapped in "application" mode, then it would be in PC cursor mode and not forms mode
16:16:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right. It's a weird thing
16:16:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Interestingly, JAWS 2026 is even more representative of user experience because even forms mode and PC cursor mode exhibit the same behavior
16:17:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So this seems like a bit of a regression in JAWS behavior
16:17:45 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I closed the other issue because it was something I was noticing, but testing in full-screen mode would make things much harder. So I generally don't run in full-screen mode
16:18:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think even if a popup window is maximized, it's still not full-screen
16:18:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: A screen reader user presses Alt+Space and then X in Windows. That maximizes a popup window, but I don't think it actually goes into full-screen mode because that's popup
16:19:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: IsaDC and I noticed this: the script can behave differently if the window is small. This doesn't make sense if you review what's happening in the script, but we definitely observed flaky focus behavior. I think that may be a Chrome problem
16:19:26 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Got it
16:22:59 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent make minutes
16:23:09 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:23:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/17-aria-at-minutes.html jugglinmike
16:24:36 <jugglinmike> s/agendum 3 -- Update on infra engineering training/agendum 3 -- Draft review of minimal data grid test plan/
16:24:44 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:24:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/17-aria-at-minutes.html jugglinmike
16:28:18 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I edited my test run for NVDA as soon as you told me that it was available
16:28:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Cool! So that worked
16:28:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Now, for VoiceOver
16:28:53 <jugglinmike> dean: I received your e-mail. No problem, I just re-did it all this morning
16:29:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh, already! I see that, now. It's all there. Awesome!
16:29:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have four conflicts between you and IsaDC
16:29:42 <jugglinmike> dean: I have a question about that
16:30:08 <jugglinmike> dean: This is one of those cases of vernacular. Two differing definitions
16:30:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Navigate backwards into a grid, test 2...
16:30:35 <jugglinmike> dean: They are wrong. It says "role grid is conveyed". They said "no", but it says "table"
16:30:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's kind-of/sort-of okay that Apple is calling a grid a table
16:31:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I just don't know how people should recognize that they're navigating within a static table versus an interactive table/grid...
16:32:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you look at the "help" message that VoiceOver gives, it tells you to use the VoiceOver commands Ctrl+Option+{Up,Down,Left,Right}
16:32:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know what happens with VoiceOver when you reach the end of a grid that loads dynamically
16:32:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It might just work, but it might depend on how the JavaScript is written
16:33:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if this is beyond the scope of ARIA-AT. I almost feel like raising an issue with Apple, but I don't know if we can really claim that they failed to convey "role=grid" because tables and roles are the same thing
16:33:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But one might argue that they are conveying the wrong thing because table is a different role than grid
16:33:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that's essentially what IsaDC is saying here
16:33:52 <jugglinmike> dean: I'll leave that to you
16:34:06 <jugglinmike> dean: But there are three conflicts due to this behavior
16:34:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm surprised there are only three!
16:34:25 <jugglinmike> dean: The fourth one is once again a bit of a subjective call
16:34:50 <jugglinmike> dean: Assertion is "number of columns, 5, is conveyed". The output says "column 5 of 5". To me, the number of columns is conveyed
16:34:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Clearly, yes
16:35:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think IsaDC is mistaken on that
16:35:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thinking about our progress, I think what we should do for the table-vs-grid thing, is to raise an issue to bring Apple in and get some input even while we're in draft review
16:36:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Because the only way to start a conversation during candidate review is to fail the test, and I'm not comfortable assigning a failing status to this test because it is so subjective
16:36:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We could reach out to IsaDC via e-mail or maybe on GitHub for that specific issue. She's not present today, but I don't want to wait until the next meeting if we don't have to
16:36:38 <jugglinmike> dean: I'm ready to move on to NVDA
16:37:47 <jugglinmike> dean: While we're here, though, I have another question. There are two tests where it records "no output". We have the same results on that, so the app says "no conflict". But I wanted to report a side-effect because the cursor does not move. Am I correct to believe that is a severe negative side-effect?
16:38:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Which test was that?
16:39:12 <jugglinmike> dean: "shift+y" and "y"
16:39:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah, okay. That command. So I actually am not certain if that is a try default. The question I have (and I don't have a Mac right now) is when VoiceOver is in its "default settings" state, are "y" and "shift+y" actually available as quick-nav commands?
16:40:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When I last had a Mac, I think on the version I had, those commands were not available, but on IsaDC's version, they were
16:41:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: One way to test that on your computer is to turn on letter quick nav (with ctrl+option+q) and then turn off VoiceOver's "help" mode (with ctrl+option+k), and then press the letter "y". If VoiceOver doesn't say anything (like "moves to next column in a table"), then we just need to remove the command from the test plan
16:41:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So when you press the "h" key in "help" mode, it should say something like ("moves to next heading")
16:42:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If it accurately describes any quick nav command but it is silent for "y", then we know we shouldn't be testing it.
16:42:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If it's not defined as a command on your computer, could you please raise an issue for that test and request that we remove that command? Please make sure to include your version of MacOS
16:43:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm so glad you asked that! There are some VoiceOver documents out there that claim that "y" is a command for moving to the next column, and other docs that don't claim that. So I'm confused
16:43:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The official Apple documentation is odd that it doesn't have a definitive list of quick-nav commands. Not one that I can find, anyway
16:43:56 <jugglinmike> dean: I'll get NVDA done before the next meeting
16:45:27 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end meeting
16:45:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, Matt_King, jugglinmike, dean
16:45:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:45:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/17-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
16:45:36 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:45:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at