16:03:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
16:03:55 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/08/12-aria-at-irc
16:03:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:03:56 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
16:04:19 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
16:05:03 <Matt_King> agenda: https://github.com/w3c-cg/aria-at/wiki/August-12%2C-2026-Agenda
16:05:03 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:05:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Review agenda and next meeting dates
16:05:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Current interop reporting status
16:05:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Tri-State Checkbox Test Plan
16:05:03 <agendabot> agenda+ App issue 1666: Can't advance tabs test plan
16:05:10 <agendabot> agenda+ Increasing test development velocity
16:09:12 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-at
16:09:18 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #aria-at
16:09:27 <Matt_King> zakim, take up item 1
16:09:27 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Review agenda and next meeting dates -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:09:38 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
16:09:43 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
16:09:44 <Matt_King> present+
16:09:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
16:09:53 <jugglinmike> present+ lola
16:10:11 <jugglinmike> lola: I'd like to add an item regarding my work adding tests for HTML "button"
16:10:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure
16:10:25 <lola> lola has joined #aria-at
16:10:28 <lola> present+
16:11:00 <Joe_Humbert> present+
16:11:33 <Matt_King> agenda+ PR 1399
16:12:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any other requests?
16:12:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none
16:12:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next CG meeting: Wednesday August 26
16:13:02 <jugglinmike> Zakim, next item
16:13:02 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Current interop reporting status -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:13:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In the last two weeks, there have been a couple changes
16:13:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We advanced the minimal data grid
16:13:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's now in the "candidate review" phase, bringing us from 22 to 23 test plans in that phase
16:14:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have completed the draft of the "tri-state checkbox" plan, and it's now ready for testing
16:14:29 <jugglinmike> zakim, next item
16:14:29 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Tri-State Checkbox Test Plan -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:14:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In preparing this test plan, I discovered some more bugs that I will raise issues for
16:14:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: ...but this plan is ready for testing
16:15:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Last night, the VoiceOver bot wasn't running.
16:15:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know why the bot isn't running at all
16:15:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe we should start with JAWS and NVDA
16:16:01 <jugglinmike> present+ chrisc
16:16:21 <jugglinmike> chrisc: The virtual machine might just need to be kicked. I can take a look later today
16:16:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you!
16:16:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I put in JAWS 2025 and had the bot run that (because we don't have a JAWS 2026 bot, yet, and I didn't want to make people run the tests totally manually)
16:17:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's possible that if someone has already upgraded to 2026 that it doesn't take JAWS 2025 off your machine. You can have one version of JAWS from each release year on your machine simultaneously
16:17:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is anyone interested in taking up this testing?
16:17:55 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Sure
16:17:57 <jugglinmike> present+ Joe_Humbert
16:18:59 <jugglinmike> present+ amruth
16:19:11 <jugglinmike> amruth: I can test, as well
16:19:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great. I can start another bot run and then assign it to you when it is complete
16:19:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I also need to set you up in the system and send you some training information for running tests
16:21:41 <jugglinmike> present+ dean
16:25:26 <jugglinmike> present+ elizabeth
16:25:33 <jugglinmike> elizabeth: I can test, as well
16:25:41 <jugglinmike> zakim, next item
16:25:41 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- App issue 1666: Can't advance tabs test plan -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:27:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think folks need to build the app locally and then get the app into a state that they can reproduce the issue
16:27:05 <jugglinmike> chrisc: That sounds right
16:27:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: elizabeth, if you need help with that first step, we can arrange a meeting
16:27:47 <jugglinmike> elizabeth: That sounds good. I'll send you a message on Slack, chrisc
16:28:03 <jugglinmike> chrisc: Great, I should have availability next week
16:28:18 <jugglinmike> elizabeth: I'll make an attempt on my own in the mean time
16:28:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you both
16:28:38 <jugglinmike> zakim, take up item 6
16:28:38 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- PR 1399 -- taken up [from Matt_King]
16:29:44 <Matt_King> github: https://github.com/w3c-cg/aria-at/pull/1399
16:30:07 <lola> lola has joined #aria-at
16:30:16 <lizzzz> lizzzz has joined #aria-at
16:30:20 <lola> https://github.com/w3c-cg/aria-at/pull/1399
16:30:32 <lola> Github: https://github.com/w3c-cg/aria-at/pull/1399
16:32:08 <jugglinmike> lola: This pull request is an experiment of sorts
16:32:11 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria-at
16:32:14 <jugglinmike> lola: It's my first time writing tests
16:32:33 <jugglinmike> lola: I'm trying to write tests for the "button" element as specified in HTML-AAM
16:32:49 <jugglinmike> lola: There is one set of tests for active buttons and one set for buttons that are disabled
16:33:23 <jugglinmike> lola: There aren't any existing tests for a disabled button, so I'm not sure whether what I've got in the data files (the ones for the screen reader commands) is correct
16:33:39 <jugglinmike> lola: So I'd like to draw my reviewers' attention to that aspect specifically
16:33:59 <jugglinmike> lola: Also, I'd appreciate it if anyone can point me to places where I can reuse tests if possible
16:34:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you, lola, this is awesome!
16:34:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The only way we can move forward is with these experiments
16:34:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: One practical thing: it would be really helpful if this was in a branch of the repository instead of a fork (if you don't mind)
16:34:51 <jugglinmike> lola: Sure
16:35:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The only thing I'm wondering about as your describing this is: testing two different things in the same test plan would be tricky. I think an active button and a disabled button each need their own dedicated test plan
16:35:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then we can continue the model of inserting links right before the element of concern and right after the element of concern
16:36:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And if these were separate test plans, you would have two different reference files
16:36:07 <jugglinmike> lola: That makes sense
16:36:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think copying the test plan for the "command button" should work
16:36:38 <jugglinmike> lola: I don't think I made that many changes; it should be exactly the same
16:37:07 <jugglinmike> lola: I'm struggling to remember because the disabled button is amongst that, but once I split them up, then I think "command button" and "button" should be pretty much the same
16:37:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It could be exactly the same test plan but with some navigation commands removed
16:37:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The only navigation commands that might work would be the arrow-key commands
16:37:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: "j" in VoiceOver ignores a disabled button, I'm pretty sure
16:37:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm positive that "f" and "v" do in JAWS and NVDA
16:38:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: you might want to start with the "active button" test plan, exactly copy it for the "disabled button" test plan, and then just remove commands for "disabled button"
16:39:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm curious if you could share a little bit about your learning experience with the group
16:39:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is what I had in mind for the fifth agenda item in today's meeting
16:40:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I want to remove barriers for people doing what you have boldly gone out and done
16:40:34 <Joe_Humbert> Can you write a guide?
16:40:40 <jugglinmike> lola: Sure. I had some questions
16:40:52 <jugglinmike> lola: There is some generation that happens which isn't immediately clear in the wiki
16:41:10 <jugglinmike> lola: In the "tests" folder and choose accordion
16:41:37 <jugglinmike> lola: In the reference for each test plan, there is one HTML file that you self-author. That's just to put the element in the pattern where it should be
16:41:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right, you write one test case
16:41:52 <jugglinmike> lola: It wasn't clear to me that the other HTML files are generated
16:42:16 <jugglinmike> lola: I inferred that eventually, but I had questions about how they are generated. It was a bit confusing
16:42:24 <jugglinmike> lola: Another challenge was knowing what commands to write
16:42:51 <jugglinmike> lola: Because I lifted from an existing test plan, it wasn't so big of a problem. But if I had to write the tests from scratch, I would not have known where to start
16:43:04 <jugglinmike> lola: Especially if you're not someone who users a screen reader in your day-to-day
16:43:22 <jugglinmike> lola: Otherwise, for me, it was a lot of reading documentation and trial-and-error
16:43:56 <jugglinmike> lola: The wiki page called "v2 format" was helpful
16:44:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's up-to-date. It's a kind of spec for tests. I wrote that. If you ever find an error there (or something that is unclear), I would certainly like to help improve that
16:45:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm curious, for someone who is new and might be interested in writing a test plan, how can we take "baby steps" in terms of helping people be able to do that?
16:45:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The most complicated thing in all of this, I think, is being familiar with GitHub and how GitHub works
16:46:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I feel like once you're past that, then if you're familiar with running tests, then most of the rest is about learning to write the CSV files
16:47:22 <jugglinmike> lola: I think it depends on what you mean by using GitHub. Even if you're familiar with using GitHub for a continuous-integration workflow, there is a bigger hurdle about modifying the files themselves. Mainly because, as I said, you really have to read the CSV files (the ones that already exist) and get your head around what they are doing
16:47:37 <jugglinmike> lola: I think we should point to JAWS, NVDA, and VoiceOver documentation (where available) from the wiki
16:47:58 <jugglinmike> lola: Like about understanding what the available modes are, what they mean, and what you can do in each one
16:48:44 <jugglinmike> lola: When I'm talking with other people, they have no understanding of the existing of different modes, etc. I think having an understanding of how the screen reader works and also about how that relates to the contents of the CSV files as a bigger hurdle
16:48:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think this group is generally people who have familiarity with screen readers and how they work
16:49:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But I think you're right: you can learn it over time, but it becomes mimicry if you're not a daily screen reader users or tester
16:50:25 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: I was thinking about this, too. It's been a while for me. One immediate thought I had, while thinking about aam mapping: should we have "explainer" style documentation with tables that document similar commands between screen readers
16:51:40 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: On another level, I was present for Matt_King's talk at TPAC, and I was wondering whether it might be helpful to have a human-readable document to describe a test plan. You have to do a lot of mental "joins" to understand the relationship between the various CSV files that comprise a test plan
16:51:58 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Even just to produce something as an artifact for test-plan writers to understand what a test plan really is at a high level
16:52:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I guess starting with some kind of document... I've been hesitating to invest a lot of time in this, partly because it feels like I don't have a really solid understanding about what is hardest for a newcomer to piece together.
16:53:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Like, when you look at a test report, that test report reflects the test plan
16:53:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When you look at the test report, how understandable are the details? What parts are difficult to piece together?
16:53:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe we start there because those are a reflection of the plan
16:55:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: How apparent is the structure from the test report? How easy is it to decipher the anatomy of the plan?
16:56:25 <jugglinmike> lola: ARIA-AT is a completely different way of writing tests than any other work in my career. I don't want to make it seem that it's a completely alien thing; it could just be due to my personal experience
16:56:39 <jugglinmike> lola: I'm used to WPT or JavaScript or Ruby testing. I may just not have enough experience in this space
16:57:21 <jugglinmike> lola: ...but I would say, in general, I think there is a high barrier of entry to understanding the reports. And also, once you understand the reports, there's a barrier in being able to communicate their meaning to others.
16:57:40 <jugglinmike> lola: I think we could iterate to make those things easier. I don't think it's a case to refactor everything in one go
16:58:12 <jugglinmike> lola: And as Joe_Humbert mentioned, if the tests are easier to write, then it will be easier to onboard more people. The same goes for the reports
16:58:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My impression is that the primary difference between this testing and other testing (in, for example WPT), is the complexity of the test cases
16:59:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wrote one test plan just for "aria-required on a text input". I think that is more like a WPT test in that it is such a narrow test case
17:00:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Even still, I think that when we're talking about screen-reader interoperability, I think a big lesson we've learned in the past eight years as we've refined the testing approach, screen reader interoperability means that you can do certain things with each element. Broadly: you can navigate to it, you can get information about it, and you can operate it
17:00:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are different levels of complexity depending on the widget
17:00:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So, saying that "you can interact with a menu", a menu isn't atomic--it's a collection. You get into tricky things from there, positions and set set, etc.
17:01:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You could have different individual test cases for each detail, which would be more like WPT but harder for people to understand. Or you could write one encompassing test plan
17:01:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's how we ended up where we are
17:01:53 <jugglinmike> lola: That makes sense. A browser is not a screen reader, so even though WPT is doing similar things in terms of interacting with browsers, I think it's simpler than interacting with screen readers
17:02:22 <jugglinmike> lola: But I still do think that, while we may not need to communicate all of that to new testers, we should continue to brainstorm to better understand the barrier of entry
17:02:42 <jugglinmike> lola: I think ChrisCuellar's suggestion is a good first step. A human-readable overview would have been super-helpful to me
17:03:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well right now, other than me, you are the only test-writer. Scaling this project is a challenge! Especially scaling without the funding for an appropriately-size design and engineering team
17:03:31 <jugglinmike> lola: Are we planning anything at TPAC?
17:03:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm still working out the details for my participation, but I'm reasonably confident that I will be there
17:04:11 <jugglinmike> lola: If you are, then I think doing some kind of "write ARIA-AT tests" hackathon for an hour or so could be beneficial
17:04:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I would love to do that kind of thing! If you want to help, that would be awesome
17:04:37 <jugglinmike> lola: I will be at TPAC, and I think Cynthia will be, as well
17:05:14 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: I just checked in on the VoiceOver bot. The machine was down, and I couldn't get it back online. That has never happened before, so I've filed a ticket with MacStadium. Hopefully, we will get this cleared up soon!
17:10:20 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
17:10:20 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Matt_King, lola, Joe_Humbert, chrisc, amruth, dean, elizabeth
17:10:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:10:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/12-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
17:10:31 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:10:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at