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15:58:07 <AutomatedTester> Meeting: BTT August 2026 Meeting
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15:58:12 <AutomatedTester> Chair: David Burns
15:58:23 <AutomatedTester> scribe: David Burns
15:58:32 <AutomatedTester> scribenick: Automatedtester
15:58:46 <AutomatedTester> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2026-08-BiDi#Agenda
15:58:49 <AutomatedTester> present+
15:59:08 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: make minutes public
15:59:08 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', AutomatedTester.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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16:00:22 <AutomatedTester> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:00:33 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:00:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/12-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
16:00:41 <orkon> present+
16:01:05 <jgraham> present+
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16:03:45 <AutomatedTester> topic: Streaming API
16:03:58 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/1135
16:04:12 <sasha> present+
16:04:17 <jdescottes> present_
16:04:18 <jdescottes> present+
16:04:53 <AutomatedTester> sasha: for the streaming. API I am asking if we can have a review of this. We think we have figured out to make this work. At the moment it does the general structure and does script evaluation
16:05:14 <AutomatedTester> ... it does not cover network or screencast just the general structure
16:05:22 <AutomatedTester> ... please review the PR or ask questions
16:05:28 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:05:30 <orkon> q+
16:05:33 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:05:38 <yezhizhen> present+
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16:06:13 <AutomatedTester> orkon: do.  we have a usecase for returning a returning a stream from javascript?
16:06:14 <jgraham> q+
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16:06:59 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:07:14 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: from the spec, the streams in fetch are the same JS streams
16:07:32 <AutomatedTester> ... from the spec point we need to take a DOM stream object and return it
16:08:07 <AutomatedTester> ... in terms of use cases then there are some like "fetching" some large JS object and you want to access from webdriver
16:08:59 <AutomatedTester> ... the point was trying to get DOM streams to then we go from there. This makes it easier to write tests
16:09:31 <AutomatedTester> ... but I don't think the use cases will change to much from what we have in the spec
16:09:33 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:09:43 <orkon> we will review the PR first
16:10:00 <AutomatedTester> topic: Add "imageSize" argument to "browsingContext.captureScreenshot" command.
16:10:10 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/1145
16:10:47 <AutomatedTester> sasha: there is a use case for adding a imageSize to capture screenshot to allow people to get the screenshot size back
16:11:27 <AutomatedTester> ... this alllows agentic usecases and it only specifies the maximum size and will try downscale to the maximum size that people are suggesting
16:11:39 <AutomatedTester> ... please review and/or ask questions
16:11:53 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:12:20 <AutomatedTester> topic: An event/data attribute to know when a frame/window.open finished loading
16:12:29 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/832
16:13:29 <orkon> q+
16:13:45 <AutomatedTester> sasha: we would like to have an event or attribute has finished loading. we would like to have this as a property on the context creation event
16:14:10 <gsnedders> q+
16:14:14 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:14:54 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I was curious how it will know if it will be navigated. I can see this for window open but might not happen if things are lazy loaded
16:15:42 <AutomatedTester> sasha: for iframes we can see if there is an attribute is set. If it is lazy loaded we haven't got that yet and will need review
16:15:47 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:16:25 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: I am interested in how we would put this into the html spec. I think that is the more interesting aspect of this work
16:16:38 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: do you have a specific thought on this?
16:16:56 <jgraham> q+
16:17:04 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: like where would we put the hooks for this? there are some complicated pathways through the spec here
16:17:54 <AutomatedTester> sasha: I have taken a look today and there are a lot of paths. There are some areas that need updating. but it didn't look too difficult
16:17:56 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:18:48 <sasha> q+
16:19:10 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: if not this then. what else? There are cases where could people do things that could land up against about:blank when they don't realise
16:19:12 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:20:14 <gsnedders> q+
16:20:17 <AutomatedTester> sasha: the other approach of having an event will have the same issue as adding it as a property. We still are going to have to figure out when to send the event and where to put it in the spec
16:20:19 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:21:10 <jgraham> q+
16:21:18 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: I don't think the approach from webdriver is the issue, I think it will be interesting getting the html spec as I don't think people implement this properly
16:21:25 <orkon> q+
16:21:38 <AutomatedTester> ... firefox and webkit have a lot of edge cases here that chromium might not
16:22:01 <AutomatedTester> ... and it will be good to have an idea of "what counts" otherwise users could hit a lot of edge cases
16:22:05 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:22:33 <gsnedders> (to slightly add: I think Firefox and WebKit at times load initial about:blank when Chromium doesn't?
16:22:34 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I wonder what the situation is today. Firefox is fixing things here and the navigation spec is making people align
16:23:08 <AutomatedTester> ... everything could be a edge case here. Is this about blank or is this about to navigate
16:23:27 <AutomatedTester> ... if we can solve the 95% case here that would be good for end users
16:24:21 <AutomatedTester> ... and this could lead to people optimising. the platform when people will be using webdriver or when it's not
16:24:24 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:25:29 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I think there are 2 issues here. Lazy frames in puppeteer came up against not having about blank. There are optimisations here that could cause problems.
16:25:55 <jgraham> q+
16:26:31 <AutomatedTester> ... we need to make sure that attribute doesn't contradict what happens when a frame actually runs
16:26:34 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:26:35 <AutomatedTester> jgraham:
16:26:55 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I agree with the navigation api we need to make sure that does what we need
16:27:06 <AutomatedTester> ... we need to dig into this further
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16:27:32 <AutomatedTester> ... with lazy loading I don't know what events might be  emited
16:27:53 <gsnedders> q+
16:28:04 <AutomatedTester> ... and lazy loading might need it's own solution here
16:28:09 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:29:26 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: the other thing that we need to look at is things around script execution. e.g. if you start execution in about blank and then it navigates what do you do? It's something that needs to be thought about
16:29:33 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:29:55 <gsnedders> ...not directly related to this issue, but it's a lot of what causes user issues
16:30:05 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the motivation is to prevent people running scripts in about:blank that could navigate
16:30:20 <jgraham> s/could/are known to be about to/
16:30:35 <AutomatedTester> topic: UserContext returned on events
16:30:45 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/1144
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16:32:27 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: this is just a PR that was for the work that jimevans raised before it should not be controversial. This was done around the work for parallelisation with selenium. Please review
16:32:51 <AutomatedTester> ... it does open a question do we want to do something similar for browsing context but that can be answered later
16:33:03 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:33:27 <AutomatedTester> topic: What counts as "the DOM events generated by the last invocation of the dispatch tick actions steps"
16:33:39 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/issues/1970
16:34:06 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: I posted this a few weeks ago around the behaviours of actions on mobile
16:34:43 <AutomatedTester> ... there are a lot cases where waiting for a tick could lead to certain gestures never actually happening
16:35:50 <AutomatedTester> ... this could lead to OS interpretations of gestures not doing what the user wanted .e.g. a tap waiting for something could look like a press and hold while the other item finishes
16:36:01 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:36:05 <jgraham> q+
16:36:12 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:37:16 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we have talked about this before, I would need to check what firefox is doing but I think we just inject things into the event loop. The best person for this is whimboo who isnt around at the moment
16:37:34 <AutomatedTester> ... I expect we want to improve the spec here
16:37:43 <AutomatedTester> ... do you have a proposal on how to fix it
16:37:57 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: not at the moment
16:38:26 <AutomatedTester> ... the longer asnwer is there are times when we want to wait and times we dont and it is hard to decide
16:38:47 <AutomatedTester> ... and this can make WPT fail en masse
16:38:59 <orkon> q+
16:39:13 <AutomatedTester> ... I would like to avoid "wait for any click or events to fire"
16:39:37 <AutomatedTester> ... this is around how gestures are done and none of that is really specified
16:39:40 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:39:50 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:39:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/12-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
16:40:15 <jgraham> q+
16:40:41 <gsnedders> q+
16:40:51 <AutomatedTester> orkon: in the past I think we decided to make sure that we didn't do things that lasted more than the `performActions` call
16:40:54 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:41:07 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that is correct
16:42:03 <AutomatedTester> ... I think the issue is the opposite. there are times where we want pointer down and pointer up to happen faster than a tick to count as an gesture properly for "tap"
16:42:06 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:42:51 <jgraham> q+
16:43:00 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: this is a question of "how long do you want the event loop to spin for" which means you could wait a time here
16:43:03 <AutomatedTester> ack next
16:43:49 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: this used to work in firefox as "do an action" and then queue up it's events and then we inserted callback to make sure that the events that should happen would fire
16:44:02 <gsnedders> https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/issues/1772 I believe is the issue orkon was referring to about multiple `performActions` calls?
16:44:51 <AutomatedTester> ... [explains scenario about actions with a setTImeout]
16:44:58 <orkon> q+
16:45:24 <AutomatedTester> ... and the previous spec didn't count on how we could interact with html
16:45:45 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: there is a lot of "implementation defined" items here
16:45:49 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:45:52 <AutomatedTester> ack next
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16:46:32 <bburg> present+
16:46:52 <yezhizhen> This do reminds me of https://github.com/servo/servo/blob/22b7b75ba42474a17ff2cabf492faae181a44e95/components/webdriver_server/actions.rs#L218-L228 in Servo
16:46:53 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I briefly checked chrome and it doesn't do anything around dom. It waits for the ticks to complete and move on which might not be correct.
16:47:22 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: a lot of the webkit code is async which makes this a lot harder
16:47:33 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:47:45 <gsnedders> s/the webkit code/the UIKit WebKit code/
16:49:00 <gsnedders> (The AppKit WebKit paths are sync, which means this all works correctly on macOS.)
16:50:37 <orkon> present-
16:50:38 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: make minutes
16:50:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/12-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
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