None.
14:58:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://dristachi.site/2011/10/05-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://dristachi.site/2011/10/05-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:58:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:58:43 <moustaki> Zakim, this is rdf-wg
Yves Raimond: Zakim, this is rdf-wg ←
14:58:43 <Zakim> sorry, moustaki, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, moustaki, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time ←
14:58:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
14:58:46 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes ←
14:58:46 <trackbot> Date: 05 October 2011
14:58:55 <moustaki> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:58:55 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, moustaki
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, moustaki ←
14:58:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, moustaki, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, moustaki, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP ←
14:59:35 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:59:35 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr ←
14:59:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP ←
15:00:12 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:00:13 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr ←
15:00:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see iand, cygri_, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see iand, cygri_, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ←
15:00:21 <Zakim> ... ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP ←
15:00:30 <gavinc> trackbot, start meeting
Gavin Carothers: trackbot, start meeting ←
15:00:30 <davidwood> Zakim, this is rdfwg
David Wood: Zakim, this is rdfwg ←
15:00:31 <Zakim> ok, davidwood; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, davidwood; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
15:00:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:00:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
15:00:35 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:00:35 <trackbot> Date: 05 October 2011
15:00:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now ←
15:00:42 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:00:44 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted
Zakim IRC Bot: I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted ←
15:00:44 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:00:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P7, David_Wood, +1.707.861.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P4, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P7, David_Wood, +1.707.861.aaaa ←
15:00:46 <Zakim> -??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P7 ←
15:00:52 <swh> Zakim, what is the code?
Steve Harris: Zakim, what is the code? ←
15:00:53 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P4 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P4 is me ←
15:00:54 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
15:00:56 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), swh
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), swh ←
15:00:56 <gavinc> zakim, aaaa is me
Gavin Carothers: zakim, aaaa is me ←
15:00:58 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
15:01:00 <Zakim> +nunolopes
Zakim IRC Bot: +nunolopes ←
15:01:02 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it ←
15:01:03 <cygri_> zakim, nunolopes is me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, nunolopes is me ←
15:01:05 <ww> zakim, ??P14 is me
William Waites: zakim, ??P14 is me ←
15:01:06 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:01:08 <Zakim> +cygri_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri_; got it ←
15:01:10 <Zakim> +ww; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it ←
15:01:11 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
15:01:17 <ww> zakim, please mute me
William Waites: zakim, please mute me ←
15:01:18 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
15:01:22 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
15:01:25 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
15:01:26 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
15:01:28 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P15 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P15 is me ←
15:01:29 <yvesr> scribe: yvesr
(Scribe set to Yves Raimond)
15:01:30 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
15:01:32 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS1; got it ←
15:01:37 <gavinc> zakim, who is talking?
Gavin Carothers: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:01:41 <Zakim> -??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P13 ←
15:01:49 <Zakim> gavinc, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (4%)
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (4%) ←
15:01:52 <davidwood> Scribe Yves Raimond
David Wood: Scribe Yves Raimond ←
15:01:59 <davidwood> Scribe: Yves raimond
15:02:01 <Zakim> +??P18
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18 ←
15:02:08 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
15:02:09 <davidwood> scribenick: yvesr
15:02:13 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
15:02:13 <Guus> zakim, ??p18 is me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, ??p18 is me ←
15:02:14 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it ←
15:02:19 <Guus> zakim, mute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, mute me ←
15:02:19 <Zakim> Guus should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus should now be muted ←
15:02:20 <swh> Zakim, ??P13 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P13 is me ←
15:02:21 <Zakim> +swh; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +swh; got it ←
15:02:24 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
15:02:31 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
15:02:37 <SteveH> Zakim, SteveH is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, SteveH is me ←
15:02:37 <Zakim> sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named 'SteveH'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named 'SteveH' ←
15:02:38 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb ←
15:02:47 <SteveH> Zakim, swh is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, swh is me ←
15:02:47 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it ←
15:02:53 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me ←
15:02:53 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it ←
15:02:54 <iand> oops
15:02:56 <Zakim> + +33.4.77.42.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.4.77.42.aacc ←
15:03:07 <AZ> Zakim, aacc is me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, aacc is me ←
15:03:07 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
15:03:13 <iand> mischat: one of us is p16, one is p17
Mischa Tuffield: one of us is p16, one is p17 [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ] ←
15:03:18 <Zakim> -??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17 ←
15:03:21 <Guus> [partial regrets, have to leave after 30 min for the airport]
Guus Schreiber: [partial regrets, have to leave after 30 min for the airport] ←
15:03:22 <iand> i was p17
15:03:27 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:03:34 <mischat> zakim, ??P16 is me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P16 is me ←
15:03:35 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it ←
15:03:39 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:03:39 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:03:41 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:03:41 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:03:46 <mischat> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
15:03:46 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted ←
15:03:51 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
15:03:52 <davidwood> Zakim, ??P17 is iand
David Wood: Zakim, ??P17 is iand ←
15:03:53 <Zakim> I already had ??P17 as MacTed, davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P17 as MacTed, davidwood ←
15:04:12 <Zakim> + +1.507.261.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.507.261.aadd ←
15:04:18 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
15:04:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted),
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted), ←
15:04:21 <Zakim> ... ??P26, +1.507.261.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ??P26, +1.507.261.aadd ←
15:04:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see mbrunati, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall, AZ, mischat, SteveH, Guus, iand, cygri, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, AndyS,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see mbrunati, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall, AZ, mischat, SteveH, Guus, iand, cygri, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud1, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, AndyS, ←
15:04:24 <Zakim> ... davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP ←
15:04:26 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
15:04:45 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, aadd is me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, aadd is me ←
15:04:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it ←
15:04:48 <Zakim> -??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P26 ←
15:05:04 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, mute me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, mute me ←
15:05:04 <Zakim> Scott_Bauer should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Scott_Bauer should now be muted ←
15:05:16 <yvesr> davidwood: i'd like to go through the scribe list
David Wood: i'd like to go through the scribe list ←
15:05:19 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
15:05:26 <iand> zakim, ??p26 is me
Ian Davis: zakim, ??p26 is me ←
15:05:26 <Zakim> +iand; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +iand; got it ←
15:05:26 <yvesr> davidwood: adding new members on the scribe list
David Wood: adding new members on the scribe list ←
15:05:34 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:05:36 <mbrunati> today only via irc, phone problems
Matteo Brunati: today only via irc, phone problems ←
15:06:03 <AndyS1> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
15:06:06 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
15:06:10 <yvesr> davidwood: minutes accepted
David Wood: minutes accepted ←
15:06:20 <yvesr> TOPIC: action items review
15:06:38 <yvesr> davidwood: lisiase with html data task force for turtle in html
David Wood: liaise with html data task force for turtle in html ←
15:06:45 <yvesr> davidwood: corresponding action closed
David Wood: corresponding action closed ←
15:07:00 <yvesr> s/lisiase/liaise
15:07:09 <gavinc> sadly did it twice thanks to gmail :(
Gavin Carothers: sadly did it twice thanks to gmail :( ←
15:07:29 <yvesr> davidwood: Guus had two action items
David Wood: Guus had two action items ←
15:07:45 <Guus> we haven't done that yet, will talk to Fabien
Guus Schreiber: we haven't done that yet, will talk to Fabien ←
15:08:23 <yvesr> TOPIC: F2F planning
15:08:41 <yvesr> davidwood: f2f either at MIT or BBC
David Wood: f2f either at MIT or BBC ←
15:08:59 <mischat> please update this page with your intentions http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2
Mischa Tuffield: please update this page with your intentions http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2 ←
15:09:57 <mischat> yvesr: the bbc are struggling to get the video conference system working, at a bare minimum we will have a webcam. everything is behind a proxy,
Yves Raimond: the bbc are struggling to get the video conference system working, at a bare minimum we will have a webcam. everything is behind a proxy, [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:10:35 <mischat> davidwood: people should turn up a bit earlier at the bbc so that we can make sure that everyone gets online and set before the MIT lot turn up
David Wood: people should turn up a bit earlier at the bbc so that we can make sure that everyone gets online and set before the MIT lot turn up [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:10:56 <mischat> yvesr: people should email Yves if you want to hang out and have dinner after the days play
Yves Raimond: people should email Yves if you want to hang out and have dinner after the days play [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:11:52 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:11:53 <yvesr> TOPIC: scribe list
15:11:56 <davidwood> http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
David Wood: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes ←
15:12:09 <yvesr> davidwood: who should we drop off the scribe list?
David Wood: who should we drop off the scribe list? ←
15:12:22 <mischat> nathan hasn't for a while
Mischa Tuffield: nathan hasn't for a while ←
15:12:25 <yvesr> davidwood: any suggestions for people that have not shown up?
David Wood: any suggestions for people that have not shown up? ←
15:12:47 <mischat> axel ?
Mischa Tuffield: axel ? ←
15:12:54 <gavinc> Nathan Rixham
Gavin Carothers: Nathan Rixham ←
15:13:12 <yvesr> ivan: Mohamed hasn't shown up, and Nathan
Ivan Herman: Mohamed hasn't shown up, and Nathan ←
15:13:18 <mischat> how about Axel Polleres
Mischa Tuffield: how about Axel Polleres ←
15:13:19 <mischat> ?
Mischa Tuffield: ? ←
15:13:27 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is here? ←
15:13:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted),
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted), ←
15:13:31 <Zakim> ... Scott_Bauer (muted), Souri, iand, Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Scott_Bauer (muted), Souri, iand, Sandro ←
15:13:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, mbrunati, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall, AZ, mischat, SteveH, Guus, iand, cygri, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, AndyS,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, mbrunati, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall, AZ, mischat, SteveH, Guus, iand, cygri, RRSAgent, AndyS1, Zakim, Arnaud, yvesr, pfps, gavinc, ww, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, AndyS, ←
15:13:36 <Zakim> ... davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... davidwood, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro, ericP ←
15:13:46 <yvesr> ivan: Axel? Matteo?
Ivan Herman: Axel? Matteo? ←
15:14:48 <yvesr> ivan: Jean-Francois?
Ivan Herman: Jean-Francois? ←
15:15:10 <Scott_Bauer> I'm on the call as well
Scott Bauer: I'm on the call as well ←
15:15:16 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
15:15:46 <MacTed> Zakim, mute ??p2
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute ??p2 ←
15:15:46 <Zakim> ??P2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ??P2 should now be muted ←
15:15:50 <NickH> zakim, ??P2 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
15:15:50 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:15:52 <NickH> thanks!
Nicholas Humfrey: thanks! ←
15:16:27 <ww> davidwood: i am not on the list! but happy to scribe after the F2F
David Wood: i am not on the list! but happy to scribe after the F2F [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ] ←
15:16:44 <yvesr> ivan: heard back from our admin that the zakim channel is opened on both days
Ivan Herman: heard back from our admin that the zakim channel is opened on both days ←
15:16:57 <yvesr> sandro: the code will be rdf2wg
Sandro Hawke: the code will be rdf2wg ←
15:16:59 <sandro> for F2F
Sandro Hawke: for F2F ←
15:17:09 <yvesr> sandro: i will update the wiki page
David Wood: i will update the wiki page ←
15:17:27 <mbrunati> sorry for the last weeks, not enough time ( we are making a contest on open data ), F2F probably only remote for the BBC place, and december not able to scribe ( my marriage )
Matteo Brunati: sorry for the last weeks, not enough time ( we are making a contest on open data ), F2F probably only remote for the BBC place, and december not able to scribe ( my marriage ) ←
15:17:34 <yvesr> TOPIC: Named Graphs
15:17:41 <sandro> s/sandro:/david:/
15:17:49 <yvesr> davidwood: we have two proposals
David Wood: we have two proposals ←
15:18:01 <yvesr> davidwood: ... and we have a f2f next week
David Wood: ... and we have a f2f next week ←
15:18:08 <yvesr> davidwood: ... we need to have a good plan by next week
David Wood: ... we need to have a good plan by next week ←
15:18:17 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
15:18:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted),
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, David_Wood, gavinc, ww (muted), cygri_, Arnaud, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus (muted), SteveH, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, AZ, MacTed (muted), ←
15:18:21 <Zakim> ... Scott_Bauer (muted), Souri, iand, Sandro, NickH (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Scott_Bauer (muted), Souri, iand, Sandro, NickH (muted) ←
15:18:46 <Guus> yes
Guus Schreiber: yes ←
15:19:39 <davidwood> http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs
David Wood: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs ←
15:20:14 <yvesr> davidwood: the graph task forcepage needs to be updated
David Wood: the graph task force page needs to be updated ←
15:20:29 <yvesr> s/forcepage/force page
15:20:46 <sandro> action: richard to update http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help)
ACTION: richard to update http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) ←
15:20:47 <yvesr> cygri: i can do it, but it would be good if someone could contribute as well
Richard Cyganiak: i can do it, but it would be good if someone could contribute as well ←
15:20:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-94 - Update http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-10-12].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-94 - Update http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-10-12]. ←
15:20:57 <yvesr> davidwood: the two proposals come from sandro and cygri
David Wood: the two proposals come from sandro and cygri ←
15:21:05 <davidwood> http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
David Wood: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ←
15:21:16 <yvesr> davidwood: the use-cases page needs to be cleaned up
David Wood: the use-cases page needs to be cleaned up ←
15:21:40 <yvesr> davidwood: sandro tried to get to the core of those use-cases in his recent emails with the proveance xg
David Wood: sandro tried to get to the core of those use-cases in his recent emails with the proveance xg ←
15:21:52 <yvesr> davidwood: it would be good to define test cases from these use cases
David Wood: it would be good to define test cases from these use cases ←
15:22:02 <yvesr> davidwood: which would serve as a basis for evaluation
David Wood: which would serve as a basis for evaluation ←
15:22:15 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:22:35 <yvesr> davidwood: it might be possible to collapse some use cases together
David Wood: it might be possible to collapse some use cases together ←
15:23:22 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
15:23:54 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:24:09 <yvesr> ivan: we need to be looking at just 5 or 4 use cases, otherwise we'll be lost
Ivan Herman: we need to be looking at just 5 or 4 use cases, otherwise we'll be lost ←
15:24:17 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me ←
15:24:17 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted ←
15:24:22 <yvesr> davidwood: right now, we have 27 use cases
David Wood: right now, we have 27 use cases ←
15:24:30 <yvesr> davidwood: ... most of those overlap
David Wood: ... most of those overlap ←
15:24:39 <yvesr> davidwood: ... it woul dbe better if we had 5!
David Wood: ... it woul dbe better if we had 5! ←
15:24:54 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:25:18 <yvesr> cygri: agreed that 27 use cases is too much, but it doesn't make sense to pick just one
Richard Cyganiak: agreed that 27 use cases is too much, but it doesn't make sense to pick just one ←
15:25:46 <yvesr> cygri: some of the use-cases come from practical use cases
Richard Cyganiak: some of the use-cases come from practical use cases ←
15:25:47 <sandro> +1 the fish-restaurant use case should not be the only one. there are more immediate ones.
Sandro Hawke: +1 the fish-restaurant use case should not be the only one. there are more immediate ones. ←
15:25:57 <yvesr> cygri: ... rather than just 'this is what we could do'
Richard Cyganiak: ... rather than just 'this is what we could do' ←
15:26:27 <sandro> http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
Sandro Hawke: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ←
15:26:58 <sandro> cygri: 1.6, 1.2
Richard Cyganiak: 1.6, 1.1 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:27:04 <yvesr> cygri: particularly interesting ones are, to me, 1.6 - versioning, 1.1 - overlap between content of graphs,
Richard Cyganiak: particularly interesting ones are, to me, 1.6 - versioning, 1.1 - overlap between content of graphs, ←
15:27:11 <davidwood> s/1.2/1.1/
15:27:26 <yvesr> cygri: ... i'd like everyone in the group to do that on the mailing list
Richard Cyganiak: ... i'd like everyone in the group to do that on the mailing list ←
15:27:36 <sandro> +1: please nominate your favorite use case.
Sandro Hawke: +1 please nominate your favorite use case. ←
15:27:44 <sandro> s/://
15:27:53 <yvesr> davidwood: provencance use cases are important
David Wood: provencance use cases are important ←
15:27:59 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:28:02 <ww> i would argue that 6.2 bears on provenance
William Waites: i would argue that 6.2 bears on provenance ←
15:28:05 <yvesr> davidwood: ... that's why we are liaising with the provencance xg
David Wood: ... that's why we are liaising with the provenance xg ←
15:28:10 <gavinc> I like 5.2
Gavin Carothers: I like 5.2 ←
15:28:12 <mischat> s/xg/wg/
Mischa Tuffield: s/xg/wg/ ←
15:28:15 <yvesr> s/provencance/provenance
15:28:29 <gavinc> rather 5.2 is rather important to TopQuadrant
Gavin Carothers: rather 5.2 is rather important to TopQuadrant ←
15:28:45 <sandro> WARNING -- NUMBERS MAY CHANGE. THESE NUMBERS REFER TO http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/index.php?title=TF-Graphs-UC&oldid=1473
Sandro Hawke: WARNING -- NUMBERS MAY CHANGE. THESE NUMBERS REFER TO http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/index.php?title=TF-Graphs-UC&oldid=1473 ←
15:28:52 <SteveH> 1.5 is important to us
Steve Harris: 1.5 is important to us ←
15:29:05 <mischat> yvesr: has just added in a use-case given to him by Denny, about wiki based issues in the wikimedia project
Yves Raimond: has just added in a use-case given to him by Denny, about wiki based issues in the wikimedia project [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:29:06 <yvesr> yvesr: new use case from Denny, about Wikidata (Wikimedia project)
Yves Raimond: new use case from Denny, about Wikidata (Wikimedia project) ←
15:29:33 <Scott_Bauer> 4.8 has become obsolete and could be safely eliminated from the list if it overlaps with others
Scott Bauer: 4.8 has become obsolete and could be safely eliminated from the list if it overlaps with others ←
15:29:40 <Guus> I will provide example data (triples) about the Europeana Data Model use case, about metadata of heritage objects, including provenance data
Guus Schreiber: I will provide example data (triples) about the Europeana Data Model use case, about metadata of heritage objects, including provenance data ←
15:29:50 <yvesr> davidwood: we need to evaluate proposals against test cases derived from use cases
David Wood: we need to evaluate proposals against test cases derived from use cases ←
15:29:53 <Guus> Target is by Friday
Guus Schreiber: Target is by Friday ←
15:30:09 <Guus> [have to drop off]
Guus Schreiber: [have to drop off] ←
15:30:13 <yvesr> davidwood: it needs to be done before the F2F
David Wood: it needs to be done before the F2F ←
15:30:27 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
15:30:30 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
15:30:31 <yvesr> davidwood: 48 hours
David Wood: 48 hours ←
15:30:32 <Zakim> +??P30
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30 ←
15:31:05 <pchampin> zakim, ??p30 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??p30 is me ←
15:31:05 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
15:31:45 <yvesr> davidwood: would sandro and cygri be prepared to give an overview of the respective proposals on named graphs? and how they relate to UC?
David Wood: would sandro and cygri be prepared to give an overview of the respective proposals on named graphs? and how they relate to UC? ←
15:31:57 <yvesr> sandro: i don't think i have a proposal, exactly
Sandro Hawke: i don't think i have a proposal, exactly ←
15:32:48 <yvesr> sandro: i might be able to give a list of questions or a summary options
Sandro Hawke: i might be able to give a list of questions or a summary options ←
15:33:11 <yvesr> cygri: i can present my proposal
Richard Cyganiak: i can present my proposal ←
15:33:22 <Scott_Bauer> I should have referred to 4.7, "Applying Named Graphs to a Terminology Server" based on the alternate url above.
Scott Bauer: I should have referred to 4.7, "Applying Named Graphs to a Terminology Server" based on the alternate url above. ←
15:33:31 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
15:33:33 <NickH> zakim, ??P2 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
15:33:33 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:33:39 <NickH> zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, mute me ←
15:33:39 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
15:33:43 <sandro> action: sandro to present after Richard, F2F2 day 1, about where we might need more than his proposal gives us.
ACTION: sandro to present after Richard, F2F2 day 1, about where we might need more than his proposal gives us. ←
15:33:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-95 - Present after Richard, F2F2 day 1, about where we might need more than his proposal gives us. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-10-12].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-95 - Present after Richard, F2F2 day 1, about where we might need more than his proposal gives us. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-10-12]. ←
15:34:11 <yvesr> davidwood: focus at the F2F on use-cases, and turn them into test cases
David Wood: focus at the F2F on use-cases, and turn them into test cases ←
15:34:19 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:34:21 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:34:27 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:34:31 <yvesr> action: cygri to present his proposal for named graphs at the F2F
ACTION: cygri to present his proposal for named graphs at the F2F ←
15:34:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-96 - Present his proposal for named graphs at the F2F [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-10-12].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-96 - Present his proposal for named graphs at the F2F [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-10-12]. ←
15:34:33 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
15:35:08 <yvesr> cygri: i am strugginlg to find the UC that motivates the argument made by PatH and Pierre-Antoine
Richard Cyganiak: i am strugginlg to find the UC that motivates the argument made by PatH and Pierre-Antoine ←
15:36:32 <yvesr> pchampin: i can't speak for PatH, but maybe i can work on a negative example where i show the freedom given by cygri's proposal could be harmful
Pierre-Antoine Champin: i can't speak for PatH, but maybe i can work on a negative example where i show the freedom given by cygri's proposal could be harmful ←
15:37:24 <yvesr> pchampin: a lot of use cases are arguing that an IRI in a graph can be used to access a graph in a dataset
Pierre-Antoine Champin: a lot of use cases are arguing that an IRI in a graph can be used to access a graph in a dataset ←
15:37:34 <yvesr> pchampin: cygri call that a social convention
Pierre-Antoine Champin: cygri call that a social convention ←
15:37:55 <yvesr> pchampin: i think it has surprising consequences
Pierre-Antoine Champin: i think it has surprising consequences ←
15:38:25 <sandro> hard to hear davidwood
Sandro Hawke: hard to hear davidwood ←
15:38:28 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
15:38:33 <sandro> better
Sandro Hawke: better ←
15:38:39 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (62%), pchampin (22%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (62%), pchampin (22%) ←
15:39:02 <cygri> pchampin, if you could write up that use case (negative or not), that would be much appreciated
Richard Cyganiak: pchampin, if you could write up that use case (negative or not), that would be much appreciated ←
15:39:15 <pchampin> @cygri I will
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @cygri I will ←
15:39:16 <yvesr> davidwood: ability to access a graph by an IRI seems like a non-issue
David Wood: ability to access a graph by an IRI seems like a non-issue ←
15:39:27 <yvesr> davidwood: struggling to understand the counter-argument
David Wood: struggling to understand the counter-argument ←
15:39:38 <pfps> what happens when there is a mismatch between a quad and actuality?
Peter Patel-Schneider: what happens when there is a mismatch between a quad and actuality? ←
15:40:07 <sandro> the same thing as happens any other time there is bad data, pfps, I think....
Sandro Hawke: the same thing as happens any other time there is bad data, pfps, I think.... ←
15:40:47 <pfps> but if quads carry actuality then having them wrong is like having 7 be 8!
Peter Patel-Schneider: but if quads carry actuality then having them wrong is like having 7 be 8! ←
15:41:47 <davidwood> cygri, can you please scribe your comments into IRC?
David Wood: cygri, can you please scribe your comments into IRC? ←
15:41:48 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:42:20 <yvesr> pfps: there is an issue having the semantics of rdf pushing into the semantics of quads
Peter Patel-Schneider: there is an issue having the semantics of rdf pushing into the semantics of quads ←
15:42:26 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:42:51 <yvesr> davidwood: isn't the point of rdf that anybody can say anything about anything?
David Wood: isn't the point of rdf that anybody can say anything about anything? ←
15:42:59 <yvesr> davidwood: if i choose to say that 7 is 8, it's fine
David Wood: if i choose to say that 7 is 8, it's fine ←
15:43:10 <yvesr> pfps: it's different than rdf saying that 7 is 8
Peter Patel-Schneider: it's different than rdf saying that 7 is 8 ←
15:43:26 <yvesr> pfps: we don't have a proposal for how the semantics would work
Peter Patel-Schneider: we don't have a proposal for how the semantics would work ←
15:43:51 <yvesr> pfps: they can be right, but not very useful
Peter Patel-Schneider: they can be right, but not very useful ←
15:43:55 <sandro> thus the drive to make sure our usecases are ... useful. :-)
Sandro Hawke: thus the drive to make sure our usecases are ... useful. :-) ←
15:44:31 <cygri> cygri: i think we agree that in implementations, IRIs can be used to access graphs. the disagreement is about how graph names should be treated in the formal semantics. minimalist position: the semantics should be concerned with single graphs only. alternative position: the semantics should make graph IRIs denote the graphs
Richard Cyganiak: i think we agree that in implementations, IRIs can be used to access graphs. the disagreement is about how graph names should be treated in the formal semantics. minimalist position: the semantics should be concerned with single graphs only. alternative position: the semantics should make graph IRIs denote the graphs [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
15:44:38 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
15:45:03 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:45:08 <yvesr> pfps: the semantics should be concerned with single graphs only
Peter Patel-Schneider: the semantics should be concerned with single graphs only ←
15:45:25 <yvesr> pfps: right now, they do
Peter Patel-Schneider: right now, they do ←
15:45:37 <yvesr> davidwood: should the rdf semantics ignore named graphs?
David Wood: should the rdf semantics ignore named graphs? ←
15:45:50 <yvesr> pfps: you could push those notions in the rdf semantics, but it might not be helpful
Peter Patel-Schneider: you could push those notions in the rdf semantics, but it might not be helpful ←
15:46:30 <yvesr> davidwood: if you have a syntax that allows for named graphs, would you efectively just add triple?
David Wood: if you have a syntax that allows for named graphs, would you efectively just add a triple? ←
15:46:39 <yvesr> s/triple/a triple/
15:47:01 <ww> statement identifiers...
William Waites: statement identifiers... ←
15:47:03 <yvesr> davidwood: does it *need* to impact the semantics?
David Wood: does it *need* to impact the semantics? ←
15:47:21 <yvesr> pfps: leaving named graphs out of semantics looses something, but it might be more trouble than it's worth
Peter Patel-Schneider: leaving named graphs out of semantics loses something, but it might be more trouble than it's worth ←
15:47:35 <Souri> s/looses/loses/
15:47:42 <gavinc> zakim, unmute me
Gavin Carothers: zakim, unmute me ←
15:47:42 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should no longer be muted ←
15:47:53 <yvesr> gavinc: i thought everybody agreed that reification is broken, in rdf
Gavin Carothers: i thought everybody agreed that reification is broken, in rdf ←
15:47:59 <pfps> RDF reification is more trouble (>0) than it is worth (<=0)
Peter Patel-Schneider: RDF reification is more trouble (>0) than it is worth (<=0) ←
15:48:24 <yvesr> davidwood: but could it help us out of the named graphs problem?
David Wood: but could it help us out of the named graphs problem? ←
15:48:39 <yvesr> davidwood: a bounded type of reification, specific to named graphs
David Wood: a bounded type of reification, specific to named graphs ←
15:48:44 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
15:49:13 <Andy> Are we agreed how reification is broken? (and I think it is broken)
Andy Seaborne: Are we agreed how reification is broken? (and I think it is broken) ←
15:49:22 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
15:49:23 <NickH> zakim, ??P2 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
15:49:23 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:49:25 <NickH> zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, mute me ←
15:49:25 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
15:49:29 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:49:45 <davidwood> ack SteveH
David Wood: ack SteveH ←
15:50:10 <yvesr> SteveH: some of the proposals seem to be trying to rule out certain things that people are currently doing
Steve Harris: some of the proposals seem to be trying to rule out certain things that people are currently doing ←
15:50:16 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
15:50:18 <sandro> SteveH: some of the proposals seem to be trying to rule out things some people are doing in SPARQL.
Steve Harris: some of the proposals seem to be trying to rule out things some people are doing in SPARQL. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:50:29 <yvesr> SteveH: we shouldn't do that - we should support creating some structure around what people are doing right now
Steve Harris: we shouldn't do that - we should support creating some structure around what people are doing right now ←
15:50:42 <yvesr> SteveH: we don't want to be enormously disruptive
Steve Harris: we don't want to be enormously disruptive ←
15:50:52 <yvesr> davidwood: you overestimate our impact on the market
David Wood: you overestimate our impact on the market ←
15:50:56 <cygri> SteveH++
Richard Cyganiak: SteveH++ ←
15:51:01 <yvesr> SteveH: but we should try not to get ignored
Steve Harris: but we should try not to get ignored ←
15:51:05 <pchampin> @SteveH: the graph IRI as defined by the RDF spec does not have to be the graph IRI as used by SPARQL
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @SteveH: the graph IRI as defined by the RDF spec does not have to be the graph IRI as used by SPARQL ←
15:51:24 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
15:51:24 <yvesr> sandro: i can name one of these proposals
Sandro Hawke: i can name one of these proposals ←
15:51:26 <pchampin> though we should be careful to name it differently, of course
Pierre-Antoine Champin: though we should be careful to name it differently, of course ←
15:51:55 <yvesr> sandro: using graph tags to specify the subject of the doc
Sandro Hawke: using graph tags to specify the subject of the doc ←
15:51:56 <LeeF> I think that that's a pretty common practice, isn't it?
Lee Feigenbaum: I think that that's a pretty common practice, isn't it? ←
15:52:24 <gavinc> Yes, TopQuadrant is aware that we shouldn't be doing that ;)
Gavin Carothers: Yes, TopQuadrant is aware that we shouldn't be doing that ;) ←
15:52:25 <yvesr> sandro: other examples would be mandating that a graph URI must be dereferencable
Steve Harris: other examples would be mandating that a graph URI must be dereferencable ←
15:52:35 <yvesr> s/sandro/SteveH
15:52:38 <LeeF> I'm pretty sure dbpedia's SPARQL end point names graphs with the subject of the graph (at least, it did at some point)
Lee Feigenbaum: I'm pretty sure dbpedia's SPARQL end point names graphs with the subject of the graph (at least, it did at some point) ←
15:52:41 <LeeF> Anzo does it as well, in some modes
Lee Feigenbaum: Anzo does it as well, in some modes ←
15:52:46 <yvesr> sandro: we shouldn't impact on anybody's code
Sandro Hawke: we shouldn't impact on anybody's code ←
15:53:04 <gavinc> O'Reilly Media's does too
Gavin Carothers: O'Reilly Media's does too ←
15:53:15 <cygri> LeeF: the one at dbpedia.org/sparlq doesn't. the DBPedia Live one might do it
Richard Cyganiak: LeeF, the one at dbpedia.org/sparlq doesn't. the DBPedia Live one might do it ←
15:53:20 <yvesr> sandro: i think it is bad practice to use the subject as the base id of the graph
Sandro Hawke: i think it is bad practice to use the subject as the base id of the graph ←
15:53:24 <LeeF> s/LeeF:/LeeF,
15:53:48 <yvesr> sandro: maybe we can reach a proposal that is actually helpful, motivating people to switch
Sandro Hawke: maybe we can reach a proposal that is actually helpful, motivating people to switch ←
15:53:52 <yvesr> davidwood: like RDFa 1.1
David Wood: like RDFa 1.1 ←
15:54:05 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:54:05 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:54:33 <gavinc> Btw, the confusion here is rather bad. TopQurant software uses the same "method", everything tends to ask about Base URI
Gavin Carothers: Btw, the confusion here is rather bad. TopQurant software uses the same "method", everything tends to ask about Base URI ←
15:55:10 <yvesr> SteveH: we should look at the linked data work, with no strict conventions about how to name graph
Steve Harris: we should look at the linked data work, with no strict conventions about how to name graph ←
15:55:24 <yvesr> davidwood: if you're right, then we don't need standards
Sandro Hawke: if you're right, then we don't need standards ←
15:55:35 <LeeF> cygri, my experience might have been a long time ago, as well.
Lee Feigenbaum: cygri, my experience might have been a long time ago, as well. ←
15:55:36 <yvesr> SteveH: we still should recommend what to do
Steve Harris: we still should recommend what to do ←
15:55:37 <gavinc> Where base URI == OWL Ontology == Base URI 3986 == Graph Name :\
Gavin Carothers: Where base URI == OWL Ontology == Base URI 3986 == Graph Name :\ ←
15:55:40 <davidwood> That wasn't me!
David Wood: That wasn't me! ←
15:55:43 <LeeF> cygri, also the chance that i'm hopelessly confused :)
Lee Feigenbaum: cygri, also the chance that i'm hopelessly confused :) ←
15:55:45 <Andy> +1 to advice and suggestions and "good practice" docs
Andy Seaborne: +1 to advice and suggestions and "good practice" docs ←
15:55:47 <ww> MAY/SHOULD vs MUST?
William Waites: MAY/SHOULD vs MUST? ←
15:55:53 <sandro> s/davidwood/sandro/
15:55:58 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:55:58 <NickH> SteveH++
Nicholas Humfrey: SteveH++ ←
15:56:06 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
15:56:08 <gavinc> +1 to andy on advice and good (not best) practices
Gavin Carothers: +1 to andy on advice and good (not best) practices ←
15:56:08 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
15:56:32 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:56:41 <yvesr> sandro: responding to what pfps said - i don't have a particular position - but intution is that we need more than we have now
Sandro Hawke: responding to what pfps said - i don't have a particular position - but intution is that we need more than we have now ←
15:56:59 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:57:10 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
15:57:12 <pfps> it appears that we need use cases and worked out solutions to see what machinery is needed
Peter Patel-Schneider: it appears that we need use cases and worked out solutions to see what machinery is needed ←
15:57:47 <sandro> yeah. :-(
Sandro Hawke: yeah. :-( ←
15:57:53 <sandro> (frown because it's hard work.)
Sandro Hawke: (frown because it's hard work.) ←
15:58:01 <cygri> pfps++
Richard Cyganiak: pfps++ ←
15:58:15 <davidwood> That's why we need to move toward test cases
David Wood: That's why we need to move toward test cases ←
15:58:18 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:58:25 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:59:16 <yvesr> cygri: how to map terminology to use-cases? (e.g. subgraphs)
Richard Cyganiak: how to map terminology to use-cases? (e.g. subgraphs) ←
15:59:33 <yvesr> cygri: ... in that document ivan wrote about graphs
Richard Cyganiak: ... in that document ivan wrote about graphs ←
15:59:50 <yvesr> ivan: that document talked about graph literals, where you hit the issue of sub-graphs etc.
Ivan Herman: that document talked about graph literals, where you hit the issue of sub-graphs etc. ←
15:59:59 <yvesr> ivan: those propoerties were mainly coming from that
Ivan Herman: those propoerties were mainly coming from that ←
16:00:16 <yvesr> ivan: if we don't have graph literals at all, the problem becomes very different
Ivan Herman: if we don't have graph literals at all, the problem becomes very different ←
16:00:22 <pchampin> q+
16:00:27 <Souri> Why don't we just present graphs as a way of scoping (using a IRI tags) for RDF's uniqueness requirement? How people use graphs is their business.
Souripriya Das: Why don't we just present graphs as a way of scoping (using a IRI tags) for RDF's uniqueness requirement? How people use graphs is their business. ←
16:01:01 <yvesr> pchampin: graph literals may be very important
Pierre-Antoine Champin: graph literals may be very important ←
16:01:12 <yvesr> ivan: i didn't say they weren't
Ivan Herman: i didn't say they weren't ←
16:01:26 <sandro> ivan: if we have graph literals then those additional properties are important
Ivan Herman: if we have graph literals then those additional properties are important [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:01:57 <sandro> pchampin: If we don't give special semantics to graph IRIs, then we'll need more ways to talk about graphs.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: If we don't give special semantics to graph IRIs, then we'll need more ways to talk about graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:02:17 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
16:02:40 <yvesr> pchampin: if we refuse to give special semantics to graph IRIs, my intuition is that it would become more important - we need to know how to treat a graph IRI
Pierre-Antoine Champin: if we refuse to give special semantics to graph IRIs, my intuition is that it would become more important - we need to know how to treat a graph IRI ←
16:03:17 <pchampin> pchampin: ... that we can express in RDF what is the relation btw a graph and its IRI in a give dataset
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ... that we can express in RDF what is the relation btw a graph and its IRI in a give dataset [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
16:03:24 <pfps> what kind of special semantics?
Peter Patel-Schneider: what kind of special semantics? ←
16:03:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:03:48 <yvesr> davidwood: strawman proposal about RDF datasets
David Wood: strawman proposal about RDF datasets ←
16:03:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:03:50 <davidwood> Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph
David Wood: Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph ←
16:04:00 <pchampin> @pfps: that the graph IRI actually denotes the g-snap, for example
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @pfps: that the graph IRI actually denotes the g-snap, for example ←
16:04:20 <yvesr> sandro: i thought we were going through the issues list?
Sandro Hawke: i thought we were going through the issues list? ←
16:04:50 <yvesr> davidwood: this specific issue is abstract syntax to talk about multiple graphs
David Wood: this specific issue is abstract syntax to talk about multiple graphs ←
16:04:55 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
16:05:24 <yvesr> davidwood: i will go through the issues list, preparing for the F2F
David Wood: i will go through the issues list, preparing for the F2F ←
16:06:19 <yvesr> cygri: the strawman proposal is more or less a copy of the SPARQL 1.1 spec, expect it avoids saying that the graph name is an identifier for the graph
Richard Cyganiak: the strawman proposal is more or less a copy of the SPARQL 1.1 spec, expect it avoids saying that the graph name is an identifier for the graph ←
16:06:35 <NickH> zakim, ??P2 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
16:06:35 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as Bert, NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P2 as Bert, NickH ←
16:06:37 <Zakim> +??P54
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P54 ←
16:06:43 <NickH> zakim, ??P54 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P54 is me ←
16:06:43 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
16:06:49 <NickH> zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, mute me ←
16:06:49 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
16:06:55 <ww> [I have to drop off the call, apologies]
William Waites: [I have to drop off the call, apologies] ←
16:07:03 <Zakim> -ww
Zakim IRC Bot: -ww ←
16:07:29 <yvesr> cygri: it motivates the need for syntaxes, to write those different graphs
Richard Cyganiak: it motivates the need for syntaxes, to write those different graphs ←
16:07:42 <yvesr> cygri: it's important to have a strawman there
Richard Cyganiak: it's important to have a strawman there ←
16:08:03 <pfps> Looks benign to me, and useful to pull into RDF Concepts.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Looks benign to me, and useful to pull into RDF Concepts. ←
16:08:31 <Andy> and RDF-WG is doing syntax for something like this.
Andy Seaborne: and RDF-WG is doing syntax for something like this. ←
16:08:40 <yvesr> davidwood: does it look benign to everyone?
David Wood: does it look benign to everyone? ←
16:09:00 <yvesr> sandro: i don't understand why the default graph doesn't have a name
Sandro Hawke: i don't understand why the default graph doesn't have a name ←
16:09:12 <yvesr> davidwood: should it not have necessarily a name>
David Wood: should it not have necessarily a name? ←
16:09:17 <yvesr> s/>/?
16:09:27 <pfps> the sentence *could* just be removed.
Peter Patel-Schneider: the sentence *could* just be removed. ←
16:09:37 <yvesr> pfps: thereis nothing really wrong with that, the sentence could be removed
Peter Patel-Schneider: thereis nothing really wrong with that, the sentence could be removed ←
16:09:45 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:09:45 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:10:07 <yvesr> pfps: that sentence could be somewhere else?
Peter Patel-Schneider: that sentence could be somewhere else? ←
16:10:18 <pchampin> proposal: the default graph has no name, but could be identical to a named graph
PROPOSED: the default graph has no name, but could be identical to a named graph ←
16:10:29 <yvesr> MacTed: if you use a default graph, it is not named
Ted Thibodeau: if you use a default graph, it is not named ←
16:10:40 <Andy> "There is no name for the default graph role."
Andy Seaborne: "There is no name for the default graph role." ←
16:10:41 <yvesr> MacTed: if it is, then you use a named graph
Ted Thibodeau: if it is, then you use a named graph ←
16:10:45 <pfps> the sentence about the default graph not having a name could just be removed, without affecting the meaning of the section
Peter Patel-Schneider: the sentence about the default graph not having a name could just be removed, without affecting the meaning of the section ←
16:10:52 <pchampin> @sandro: I think we mean g-snaps here
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @sandro: I think we mean g-snaps here ←
16:10:58 <pfps> "There is no name for the default graph."
Peter Patel-Schneider: "There is no name for the default graph." ←
16:11:08 <yvesr> sandro: a dataset is entirely g-snap
Sandro Hawke: a dataset is entirely g-snap ←
16:11:33 <Souri> q-
Souripriya Das: q- ←
16:11:39 <Andy> sandro - That is true in SPARQL - its immutable (a graph store is mutable)
Andy Seaborne: sandro - That is true in SPARQL - its immutable (a graph store is mutable) ←
16:11:46 <sandro> +1 to removing "The default graph does not have a name."
Sandro Hawke: +1 to removing "The default graph does not have a name." ←
16:11:53 <yvesr> cygri: it might be a good idea to remove the sentence if it brings confusion - it is redundant
Richard Cyganiak: it might be a good idea to remove the sentence if it brings confusion - it is redundant ←
16:12:13 <yvesr> cygri: +1 to sandro, datasets are only composed of g-snaps
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to sandro, datasets are only composed of g-snaps ←
16:12:30 <yvesr> cygri: what we have here is essentially a 'dataset snap'
Richard Cyganiak: what we have here is essentially a 'dataset snap' ←
16:12:52 <gavinc> -0.5 to removing "The default graph does not have a name"
Gavin Carothers: -0.5 to removing "The default graph does not have a name" ←
16:12:54 <yvesr> cygri: it is just a snapshot
Richard Cyganiak: it is just a snapshot ←
16:13:42 <gavinc> EXACTLY one.
Gavin Carothers: EXACTLY one. ←
16:13:55 <pfps> around here it was snapping trees - courtesy of tropical storm Irene :-)
Peter Patel-Schneider: around here it was snapping trees - courtesy of tropical storm Irene :-) ←
16:14:54 <yvesr> sandro: if you think of that in terms of syntax, it makes it very clear that th edefalut graph doesn't have a name
Sandro Hawke: if you think of that in terms of syntax, it makes it very clear that th edefalut graph doesn't have a name ←
16:15:20 <yvesr> sandro: why do you need to do that to name the triples that are already in the default graph?
Sandro Hawke: why do you need to do that to name the triples that are already in the default graph? ←
16:15:30 <gavinc> TriG does NOT have triples without {}
Gavin Carothers: TriG does NOT have triples without {} ←
16:15:37 <sandro> david: Why do you have the move the triples into curly braces to give them a name?
David Wood: Why do you have the move the triples into curly braces to give them a name? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:15:41 <yvesr> MacTed: either they exist in a named graph, either they don't
Ted Thibodeau: either they exist in a named graph, either they don't ←
16:15:57 <gavinc> the {}s may not have a graph_name as it's optional
Gavin Carothers: the {}s may not have a graph_name as it's optional ←
16:15:59 <sandro> sorry, Gavin, call it DTriG or something.
Sandro Hawke: sorry, Gavin, call it DTriG or something. ←
16:16:32 <gavinc> sandro, np. But people have claimed that TriG is better for not having anything outside of {}s ;)
Gavin Carothers: sandro, np. But people have claimed that TriG is better for not having anything outside of {}s ;) ←
16:17:02 <yvesr> MacTed: default graph is a g-box, it can't be a g-snap
Ted Thibodeau: default graph is a g-box, it can't be a g-snap ←
16:17:27 <Andy> The default graph is a set - it can not change. It is a g-snap. a dataset is a "set"
Andy Seaborne: The default graph is a set - it can not change. It is a g-snap. a dataset is a "set" ←
16:17:30 <sandro> (right, I think Ted is wrong about dataset/gbox)
Sandro Hawke: (right, I think Ted is wrong about dataset/gbox) ←
16:17:43 <yvesr> Andy, +1
Andy, +1 ←
16:18:00 <yvesr> sandro: the default graph is not a g-box
Sandro Hawke: the default graph is not a g-box ←
16:18:14 <yvesr> sandro: in practice, you can treat it as mutable, but in theory it is immutable
Sandro Hawke: in practice, you can treat it as mutable, but in theory it is immutable ←
16:18:37 <LeeF> I don't agree with sandro on everything, but definitely agree with him on this :)
Lee Feigenbaum: I don't agree with sandro on everything, but definitely agree with him on this :) ←
16:18:47 <gavinc> Yeah
Gavin Carothers: Yeah ←
16:18:55 <cygri> “RDF graph” as per RDF Concepts = g-snap
Richard Cyganiak: “RDF graph” as per RDF Concepts = g-snap ←
16:19:06 <yvesr> davidwood: in rdf concepts, every time we say the word graph, we mean g-snap
David Wood: in rdf concepts, every time we say the word graph, we mean g-snap ←
16:19:10 <yvesr> cygri: agreed
Richard Cyganiak: agreed ←
16:19:21 <yvesr> cygri: defined as a set of triples, in the mathematical sense
Richard Cyganiak: defined as a set of triples, in the mathematical sense ←
16:19:32 <yvesr> cygri: when you add a triple, you get a different graph
Richard Cyganiak: when you add a triple, you get a different graph ←
16:19:53 <yvesr> davidwood: if you change a graph in a dataset, then you change the dataset
David Wood: if you change a graph in a dataset, then you change the dataset ←
16:20:28 <gavinc> Why not Graph Store?
Gavin Carothers: Why not Graph Store? ←
16:20:35 <yvesr> sandro: maybe we could consider a container of immutable graphs?
Sandro Hawke: maybe we could consider a container of immutable graphs? ←
16:20:51 <Andy> PUT http://example/gbox
Andy Seaborne: PUT http://example/gbox ←
16:21:13 <yvesr> sandro: a 'graph dispenser'
Sandro Hawke: a 'graph dispenser' ←
16:21:16 <Souri> I am happy :-) with just presenting graphs as a way of scoping (using a IRI tags) for RDF's uniqueness requirement. I think how people use graphs is their business.
Souripriya Das: I am happy :-) with just presenting graphs as a way of scoping (using a IRI tags) for RDF's uniqueness requirement. I think how people use graphs is their business. ←
16:21:26 <LeeF> As gavinc says, SPARQL 1.1 calls the container a "graph store"
Lee Feigenbaum: As gavinc says, SPARQL 1.1 calls the container a "graph store" ←
16:21:35 <LeeF> (SPARQL 1.1 Update, specifically)
Lee Feigenbaum: (SPARQL 1.1 Update, specifically) ←
16:21:37 <Andy> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
16:21:51 <gavinc> as does SPARQL 1.1 Graph Store HTTP Protocol
Gavin Carothers: as does SPARQL 1.1 Graph Store HTTP Protocol ←
16:21:56 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
16:21:57 <LeeF> aye
Lee Feigenbaum: aye ←
16:22:03 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
16:22:04 <sandro> @souri have you looked at the Graphs use cases? Do you know how to address them (without this stuff)?
Sandro Hawke: @souri have you looked at the Graphs use cases? Do you know how to address them (without this stuff)? ←
16:22:14 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
16:22:15 <yvesr> bye!
bye! ←
16:22:16 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:22:17 <Zakim> -cygri_
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri_ ←
16:22:17 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
16:22:18 <mbrunati> bye
Matteo Brunati: bye ←
16:22:20 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:22:20 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
16:22:20 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer ←
16:22:22 <yvesr> RRSAgent, generate minutes
RRSAgent, generate minutes ←
16:22:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://dristachi.site/2011/10/05-rdf-wg-minutes.html yvesr
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://dristachi.site/2011/10/05-rdf-wg-minutes.html yvesr ←
16:22:23 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
16:22:25 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:22:27 <Zakim> -David_Wood
Zakim IRC Bot: -David_Wood ←
16:22:29 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
16:22:30 <Zakim> -iand
Zakim IRC Bot: -iand ←
16:22:31 <MacTed> it might be worthwhile to do a global search-and-replace, s/graph/g-snap/ ... and then read
Ted Thibodeau: it might be worthwhile to do a global search-and-replace, s/graph/g-snap/ ... and then read ←
16:22:33 <Zakim> -AndyS1
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS1 ←
16:22:35 <Zakim> -mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat ←
16:22:37 <Zakim> -yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr ←
16:22:38 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
17:24:21 <Zakim> -SteveH
(No events recorded for 61 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
17:29:29 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
17:29:36 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
17:29:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, David_Wood, +1.707.861.aaaa, yvesr, gavinc, Arnaud, cygri_, ww, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus, +1.443.212.aabb, SteveH, AlexHall, +33.4.77.42.aacc, AZ,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, David_Wood, +1.707.861.aaaa, yvesr, gavinc, Arnaud, cygri_, ww, Ivan, AndyS1, Guus, +1.443.212.aabb, SteveH, AlexHall, +33.4.77.42.aacc, AZ, ←
17:29:43 <Zakim> ... mischat, MacTed, +1.507.261.aadd, Souri, Scott_Bauer, iand, Sandro, NickH, pchampin, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: ... mischat, MacTed, +1.507.261.aadd, Souri, Scott_Bauer, iand, Sandro, NickH, pchampin, LeeF ←
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