16:01:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://dristachi.site/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://dristachi.site/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-irc ←
16:01:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
16:01:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
16:01:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now ←
16:01:53 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:01:53 <trackbot> Date: 30 November 2011
16:01:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
16:01:57 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
Ted Thibodeau: RRSAgent, draft minutes ←
16:01:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://dristachi.site/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html MacTed
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://dristachi.site/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html MacTed ←
16:02:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
16:02:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago ←
16:02:03 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:02:05 <trackbot> Date: 30 November 2011
16:02:23 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs world
Ted Thibodeau: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
16:02:34 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
16:02:34 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted
Zakim IRC Bot: I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted ←
16:02:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, OpenLink_Software, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, OpenLink_Software, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc ←
16:02:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, RRSAgent, Guus, Zakim, pfps, PatH, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AndyS, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, danbri_, mischat, yvesr, mdmdm, NickH, manu, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Arnaud, RRSAgent, Guus, Zakim, pfps, PatH, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AndyS, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, danbri_, mischat, yvesr, mdmdm, NickH, manu, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP ←
16:02:47 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
16:02:47 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
16:02:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:02:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:02:51 <gavinc> scribenick: gavinc
(Scribe set to Gavin Carothers)
16:03:04 <Guus> zakim, +31 is me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, +31 is me ←
16:03:04 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it ←
16:03:07 <gavinc> Topic: Admin
16:03:25 <Zakim> +AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall ←
16:04:02 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
16:04:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, MacTed (muted), Scott_Bauer, AndyS, Guus, gavinc, AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, MacTed (muted), Scott_Bauer, AndyS, Guus, gavinc, AlexHall ←
16:04:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see charlesgreer, AlexHall, Arnaud, RRSAgent, Guus, Zakim, pfps, PatH, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AndyS, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, danbri_, mischat, yvesr, mdmdm, NickH, manu, manu1,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see charlesgreer, AlexHall, Arnaud, RRSAgent, Guus, Zakim, pfps, PatH, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AndyS, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, danbri_, mischat, yvesr, mdmdm, NickH, manu, manu1, ←
16:04:06 <Zakim> ... trackbot, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, sandro, ericP ←
16:04:52 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
16:04:55 <charlesgreer> zakim, list attendees
Charles Greer: zakim, list attendees ←
16:04:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc, MacTed, Guus, AlexHall, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, cgreer, AZ, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc, MacTed, Guus, AlexHall, ericP ←
16:05:07 <Zakim> + +1.850.377.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.850.377.aabb ←
16:05:10 <Zakim> +Arnaud_LeHors
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud_LeHors ←
16:05:10 <charlesgreer> zakim, cgreer is me
Charles Greer: zakim, cgreer is me ←
16:05:10 <Zakim> +charlesgreer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +charlesgreer; got it ←
16:05:52 <PatH> zakim, 1.850377.aabb is me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, 1.850377.aabb is me ←
16:05:54 <Zakim> sorry, PatH, I do not recognize a party named '1.850377.aabb'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, PatH, I do not recognize a party named '1.850377.aabb' ←
16:06:24 <PatH> zakim, 1.850.377.aabb is me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, 1.850.377.aabb is me ←
16:06:27 <Zakim> sorry, PatH, I do not recognize a party named '1.850.377.aabb'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, PatH, I do not recognize a party named '1.850.377.aabb' ←
16:06:34 <gavinc> Guus: Didn't have a meeting last week for Thanksgiving. Small meeting this week with so many at SemTech
Guus Schreiber: Didn't have a meeting last week for Thanksgiving. Small meeting this week with so many at SemTech ←
16:08:32 <gavinc> gavinc: Updated Graph-TF wiki page, tried to find more info from mailing lists. Added link to RDF Concepts datatypes to Turtle
Gavin Carothers: Updated Graph-TF wiki page, tried to find more info from mailing lists. Added link to RDF Concepts datatypes to Turtle ←
16:09:08 <AndyS> AndyS has no progress to report on action #119 "Create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it" - sorry
Andy Seaborne: AndyS has no progress to report on action #119 "Create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it" - sorry ←
16:09:08 <gavinc> AndyS: No progress on ISSUE-119
Andy Seaborne: No progress on ACTION-119 ←
16:09:21 <AndyS> s/ISSUE/ACTION/ !!!!!!!!
16:10:10 <AndyS> http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs
Andy Seaborne: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs ←
16:10:22 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.415.586.aacc ←
16:11:17 <gavinc> Guus: PatH completed ACTION-116
Guus Schreiber: PatH completed ACTION-116 ←
16:11:40 <gavinc> Guus: Sandro and David Wood can't make it next week. May need to cancel
Guus Schreiber: Sandro and David Wood can't make it next week. May need to cancel ←
16:12:14 <gavinc> Topic: RDF XMLLiterals
16:12:36 <gavinc> Guus: Richard is not here. Who wants to give the current status of this debate?
Guus Schreiber: Richard is not here. Who wants to give the current status of this debate? ←
16:12:42 <PatH> zakim, aabb is me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, aabb is me ←
16:12:42 <Zakim> +PatH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH; got it ←
16:13:08 <gavinc> AndyS: I don't see any reason to keep XMLLiterals hard coded into the specs.
Andy Seaborne: I don't see any reason to keep XMLLiterals hard coded into the specs. ←
16:13:17 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:13:26 <gavinc> AndyS: As long as their optional, not that concerned about them
Andy Seaborne: As long as their optional, not that concerned about them ←
16:13:44 <gavinc> +q
+q ←
16:13:55 <JeremyCarroll> q+
Jeremy Carroll: q+ ←
16:14:13 <gavinc> PatH: Was there any consensus in emails?
Patrick Hayes: Was there any consensus in emails? ←
16:14:40 <gavinc> Guus: Needed for RDF/XML, but not much else.
Guus Schreiber: Needed for RDF/XML, but not much else. ←
16:14:44 <Zakim> +??P28
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28 ←
16:14:56 <NickH> Zakim, ??P28 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P28 is me ←
16:14:56 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
16:15:02 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me ←
16:15:03 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
16:15:11 <gavinc> Guus: No significant disagreement
Guus Schreiber: No significant disagreement ←
16:15:20 <gavinc> avk me
avk me ←
16:15:23 <gavinc> ack me
ack me ←
16:16:30 <gavinc> gavinc: No strong opinions if it's optional, but the value space is a bit complicated
Gavin Carothers: No strong opinions if it's optional, but the value space is a bit complicated ←
16:16:31 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll ←
16:16:45 <Zakim> +??P29
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P29 ←
16:17:37 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: People seem not to want to mention XML C14N. I think I should provide a rationale
Jeremy Carroll: People seem not to want to mention XML C14N. I think I should provide a rationale ←
16:19:00 <PatH> +1 to Jeremy. I suggest masking it optional taks away most of the pain.
Patrick Hayes: +1 to Jeremy. I suggest masking it optional taks away most of the pain. ←
16:19:29 <PatH> masking/making
Patrick Hayes: masking/making ←
16:19:38 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: If you need to compare things, C14N is a requirement. If you want to do logical operations over it then you need to do the C14N. We need to specify how to do compare, but not every application needs to do compare
Jeremy Carroll: If you need to compare things, C14N is a requirement. If you want to do logical operations over it then you need to do the C14N. We need to specify how to do compare, but not every application needs to do compare ←
16:20:16 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Making it optional seems like the key change.
Jeremy Carroll: Making it optional seems like the key change. ←
16:20:38 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: I prefer doing in L2V mapping, but was easier as an implementor do it in the XML parser
Jeremy Carroll: I prefer doing in L2V mapping, but was easier as an implementor do it in the XML parser ←
16:20:57 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:21:13 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: At some point will need to compare an XMLLiteral from RDF/XML and Turtle, wherew will we do the work? I think right now we're saying to do it durring the compare
Jeremy Carroll: At some point will need to compare an XMLLiteral from RDF/XML and Turtle, wherew will we do the work? I think right now we're saying to do it durring the compare ←
16:21:23 <pfps> q+
16:21:32 <gavinc> q+
q+ ←
16:21:41 <ericP> editorially, we could motivate this by use cases: "For use cases which motivate equivalence between XML literals, generators of XML literals rfc2119:SHOULD canonicalize XML literals by XML Canonicalization"
Eric Prud'hommeaux: editorially, we could motivate this by use cases: "For use cases which motivate equivalence between XML literals, generators of XML literals rfc2119:SHOULD canonicalize XML literals by XML Canonicalization" ←
16:21:48 <gavinc> ack AndyS
ack AndyS ←
16:22:13 <gavinc> AndyS: You said that the XML comunity has done some work on equality?
Andy Seaborne: You said that the XML comunity has done some work on equality? ←
16:22:42 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: XML C14N talks about equality, XML infoset doesn't.
Jeremy Carroll: XML C14N talks about equality, XML infoset doesn't. ←
16:22:54 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Namespaces are an example of this.
Jeremy Carroll: Namespaces are an example of this. ←
16:23:18 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: XML C14N addresses what to do with XML Namespaces
Jeremy Carroll: XML C14N addresses what to do with XML Namespaces ←
16:23:28 <Guus> ack pfps
Guus Schreiber: ack pfps ←
16:23:29 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: There are not perfect answers here.
Jeremy Carroll: There are not perfect answers here. ←
16:24:08 <gavinc> pfps: If reading from an XML document, I understand why you need to get this right, but if your not using XML documents. In Turtle you can treat them as string
Peter Patel-Schneider: If reading from an XML document, I understand why you need to get this right, but if your not using XML documents. In Turtle you can treat them as string ←
16:24:26 <gavinc> Guus: This could be in RDF/XML no RDF Concepts?
Guus Schreiber: This could be in RDF/XML no RDF Concepts? ←
16:25:35 <PatH> if this is optional as a datatype, then we can have two kinds of xml literals with different mappings and values.
Patrick Hayes: if this is optional as a datatype, then we can have two kinds of xml literals with different mappings and values. ←
16:25:39 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: I think pfps, I think XMLLiteral should compare as a String, and RDF/XML should do the XML C14N, but in Turtle don't do anything. Only works if hand codded perfectly.
Jeremy Carroll: I think pfps, I think XMLLiteral should compare as a String, and RDF/XML should do the XML C14N, but in Turtle don't do anything. Only works if hand codded perfectly. ←
16:26:14 <ericP> gavinc: pfps's approach sounds OK
Gavin Carothers: pfps's approach sounds OK [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
16:26:35 <ericP> ... i've used XML literals a fair amount. I don't think XML literal meets any of its original use cases.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... i've used XML literals a fair amount. I don't think XML literal meets any of its original use cases. ←
16:26:51 <ericP> ... you can't use it for fragments 'cause c14n talks about documents
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... you can't use it for fragments 'cause c14n talks about documents ←
16:26:58 <ericP> ... fragments get strange
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... fragments get strange ←
16:27:13 <JeremyCarroll> hmmm - xc14n is all about fragments not documents ...
Jeremy Carroll: hmmm - xc14n is all about fragments not documents ... ←
16:27:23 <ericP> ... adding formatted XML into RDF seems like a good use case, but we can't use c14n
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... adding formatted XML into RDF seems like a good use case, but we can't use c14n ←
16:27:35 <PatH> in this pfps proposal, what is the L2V map? what are the literal values? c14n or text?
Patrick Hayes: in this pfps proposal, what is the L2V map? what are the literal values? c14n or text? ←
16:27:47 <ericP> ... we and others put escaped XML into strings
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... we and others put escaped HTML into strings ←
16:28:21 <gavinc> Guus: I don't want to spend a huge ammount of time on this issue.
Guus Schreiber: I don't want to spend a huge ammount of time on this issue. ←
16:28:24 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
16:28:30 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to correct Gavin's backwards
Jeremy Carroll: q+ to correct Gavin's backwards ←
16:28:34 <gavinc> s/escaped XML/escaped HTML
16:29:09 <ericP> q+
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ ←
16:29:10 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute me
Jeremy Carroll: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:29:10 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted ←
16:29:12 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:29:12 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:32:21 <AndyS> ack ericP
Andy Seaborne: ack ericP ←
16:32:35 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin raise issue around formated text literals
ACTION Gavin raise issue around formated text literals ←
16:32:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-124 - Raise issue around formated text literals [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-12-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-124 - Raise issue around formated text literals [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-12-07]. ←
16:33:01 <gavinc> ack gavin
ack gavin ←
16:33:17 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll ←
16:33:18 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to correct Gavin's backwards
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to correct Gavin's backwards ←
16:33:23 <gavinc> ericP: ... said stuff about XML C14N ...
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... said stuff about XML C14N ... ←
16:34:01 <gavinc> Guus: what is the impact?
Guus Schreiber: what is the impact? ←
16:34:33 <gavinc> ericP: for some use cases, generators should use XML C14N
Eric Prud'hommeaux: for some use cases, generators should use XML C14N ←
16:34:38 <JeremyCarroll> q+
Jeremy Carroll: q+ ←
16:34:43 <PatH> editorial...
Patrick Hayes: editorial... ←
16:34:58 <gavinc> ericP: Pushing back on only being in RDF/XML
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Pushing back on only being in RDF/XML ←
16:35:23 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: That's a large editoral change.
Jeremy Carroll: That's a large editoral change. ←
16:35:57 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Muddling up use cases with normative text is not a direction I want the specs to do
Jeremy Carroll: Muddling up use cases with normative text is not a direction I want the specs to go ←
16:36:01 <gavinc> s/do/go
16:36:27 <gavinc> Topic: Turtle and SPARQL escapes
16:36:55 <gavinc> Guus: is there consensus?
Guus Schreiber: is there consensus? ←
16:37:30 <gavinc> AndyS: I thought Richards desire and ericP's desires could be resolved with character escapes
Andy Seaborne: I thought Richards desire and ericP's desires could be resolved with character escapes ←
16:37:52 <gavinc> AndyS: SPARQL can go on with a at risk feature.
Andy Seaborne: SPARQL can go on with a at risk feature. ←
16:38:20 <gavinc> q+
q+ ←
16:38:41 <gavinc> AndyS: Haven't seen a responce from ericP
Andy Seaborne: Haven't seen a responce from ericP ←
16:38:50 <gavinc> ericP: I see all of it as an improvement
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I see all of it as an improvement ←
16:38:51 <ericP> +1 from me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 from me ←
16:39:57 <Zakim> +Arnaud.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud.a ←
16:40:24 <Zakim> -Arnaud_LeHors
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud_LeHors ←
16:40:48 <AndyS> If this has consensus, SPARQL-WG can proceed as described in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0229.html
Andy Seaborne: If this has consensus, SPARQL-WG can proceed as described in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0229.html ←
16:44:02 <PatH> The 'committee' heuristic: always make as few binding decisions as possible.
Patrick Hayes: The 'committee' heuristic: always make as few binding decisions as possible. ←
16:45:07 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0249.html (first comment)
Andy Seaborne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0249.html (first comment) ←
16:45:51 <gavinc> "Is escaping the URI-legal, non-alphanumerics as character escapes acceptable to you?"
"Is escaping the URI-legal, non-alphanumerics as character escapes acceptable to you?" ←
16:46:33 <JeremyCarroll> shall we create an action to make the text?
Jeremy Carroll: shall we create an action to make the text? ←
16:46:51 <gavinc> <identifier_char>: [a-zA-Z0-9-] | \\[URI-legal, non-alphanumerics]
<identifier_char>: [a-zA-Z0-9-] | \\[URI-legal, non-alphanumerics] ←
16:47:23 <gavinc> Topic: Named Graphs
16:47:44 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
16:47:53 <JeremyCarroll> q-
Jeremy Carroll: q- ←
16:47:56 <gavinc> Guus: There have been some messages on the uses of the 4th column
Guus Schreiber: There have been some messages on the uses of the 4th column ←
16:47:59 <gavinc> ack gavinc
ack gavinc ←
16:48:02 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:48:34 <gavinc> Guus: IRI in the 4th column seems to be the consensus
Guus Schreiber: IRI in the 4th column seems to be the consensus ←
16:48:53 <gavinc> AZ: It is still useful to have Literals in the 4th column
Antoine Zimmermann: It is still useful to have Literals in the 4th column ←
16:49:14 <gavinc> Guus: has to be extreamly compelling to change the design
Guus Schreiber: has to be extreamly compelling to change the design ←
16:49:44 <gavinc> AZ: For temporal RDF, people are annotating with VALUE, not a IRI
Antoine Zimmermann: For temporal RDF, people are annotating with VALUE, not a IRI ←
16:50:00 <JeremyCarroll> q+
Jeremy Carroll: q+ ←
16:50:30 <gavinc> AZ: other proposals that annotate with trust values, which again, are values.
Antoine Zimmermann: other proposals that annotate with trust values, which again, are values. ←
16:50:44 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
16:50:44 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
16:50:50 <Guus> ack PatH
Guus Schreiber: ack PatH ←
16:51:12 <gavinc> PatH: Allow literals in 4th positions, one can imagine uses
Patrick Hayes: Allow literals in 4th positions, one can imagine uses ←
16:51:27 <gavinc> PatH: I don't think we have preserve existing desgin, we don't have one
Patrick Hayes: I don't think we have preserve existing desgin, we don't have one ←
16:51:43 <AZ> strong +1 PatH
Antoine Zimmermann: strong +1 PatH ←
16:51:49 <gavinc> PatH: Should not prohibit values in fields in RDF
Patrick Hayes: Should not prohibit values in fields in RDF ←
16:52:40 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: Original design had a 5th column
Jeremy Carroll: Original design had a 5th column ←
16:53:22 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: When you think about it, you want to talk about small graphs (molecules). Give those subgraphs name...
Jeremy Carroll: When you think about it, you want to talk about small graphs (molecules). Give those subgraphs name... ←
16:53:23 <PatH> the fourth column need not be a graph name. We dont yet have enough experience to know how quads may be used.
Patrick Hayes: the fourth column need not be a graph name. We dont yet have enough experience to know how quads may be used. ←
16:53:39 <PatH> q
Patrick Hayes: q ←
16:53:44 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
16:53:54 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:54:15 <Guus> ack AZ
Guus Schreiber: ack AZ ←
16:54:25 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll ←
16:54:28 <gavinc> ... I don't understand the restince to I don't understand the resistance to named graphs.
... I don't understand the restince to I don't understand the resistance to named graphs. ←
16:54:40 <gavinc> AZ: Need to be able to relate the IRI to the graph itself as the label.
Antoine Zimmermann: Need to be able to relate the IRI to the graph itself as the label. ←
16:54:51 <gavinc> AZ: The IRI doesn't denote the graph
Antoine Zimmermann: The IRI doesn't denote the graph ←
16:54:55 <Guus> ack PatH
Guus Schreiber: ack PatH ←
16:55:01 <gavinc> AZ: Then you can't annotate the triples
Antoine Zimmermann: Then you can't annotate the triples ←
16:56:08 <gavinc> PatH: the 4th column doesn't denote, so we shouldn't restrict how it's used
Patrick Hayes: the 4th column doesn't denote, so we shouldn't restrict how it's used ←
16:56:38 <gavinc> Guus: We don't require the 4th column to denote, so we shouldn't place other requirements on the 4th column
Guus Schreiber: We don't require the 4th column to denote, so we shouldn't place other requirements on the 4th column ←
16:57:23 <ericP> q+ to mention some bias towards IRIs for graph names in SPARQL
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to mention some bias towards IRIs for graph names in SPARQL ←
16:58:03 <PatH> losing sound?
Patrick Hayes: losing sound? ←
16:58:05 <AZ> in SPARQL does really have a "fourth column"
Antoine Zimmermann: in SPARQL does really have a "fourth column" ←
16:58:28 <gavinc> AndyS: SPARQL does not "denote", but does require an IRI
Andy Seaborne: SPARQL does not "denote", but does require an IRI ←
16:59:15 <PatH> to hell with writing a spec in order to preserve someone's optimizers.
Patrick Hayes: to hell with writing a spec in order to preserve someone's optimizers. ←
16:59:29 <pchampin> anyway, SPARQL does allow literals in subject position, doesnt it?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: anyway, SPARQL does allow literals in subject position, doesnt it? ←
16:59:42 <pchampin> so optimizing that way is already non-compliant :)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: so optimizing that way is already non-compliant :) ←
16:59:42 <gavinc> AndyS: The words in the SPARQL algebra say IRI, but could change.
Andy Seaborne: The words in the SPARQL algebra say IRI, but could change. ←
17:00:26 <gavinc> Guus: Would feel more comfortable if the SPARQL working group would respond formally
Guus Schreiber: Would feel more comfortable if the SPARQL working group would respond formally ←
17:00:57 <AZ> To me it's ok to have SPARQL forbid literals as "name for graphs", it's just that quads with literals would not translate directly to SPARQL datasets
Antoine Zimmermann: To me it's ok to have SPARQL forbid literals as "name for graphs", it's just that quads with literals would not translate directly to SPARQL datasets ←
17:01:06 <gavinc> ACTION Guus to ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column
ACTION Guus to ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column ←
17:01:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-125 - Ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-12-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-125 - Ask SPARQL WG about allowing literals in the 4th column [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-12-07]. ←
17:01:09 <ericP> q-
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q- ←
17:01:10 <PatH> +i az
Patrick Hayes: +i az ←
17:01:10 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
17:01:18 <PatH> +1 az
Patrick Hayes: +1 az ←
17:01:48 <AndyS> ... That's a gotcha. :-(
Andy Seaborne: ... That's a gotcha. :-( ←
17:02:16 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation)
Jeremy Carroll: q+ to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation) ←
17:03:20 <pchampin> q+
17:03:46 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll ←
17:03:46 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation)
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to argue for Named Graphs (with denotation) ←
17:04:00 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
17:04:00 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
17:04:04 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: The thing with RDF is that we don't have a Triple. We have a subject, predicate, and object. Those are all different
Jeremy Carroll: The thing with RDF is that we don't have a Triple. We have a subject, predicate, and object. Those are all different ←
17:04:22 <ericP> i didn't see any LL(1) or LALR(1) grammar conflicts when adding literals to http://dristachi.site/2005/01/yacker?name=trigTurtle&replace=1&lang=perl#prod-trigTurtle_EGP-graph
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i didn't see any LL(1) or LALR(1) grammar conflicts when adding literals to http://dristachi.site/2005/01/yacker?name=trigTurtle&replace=1&lang=perl#prod-trigTurtle_EGP-graph ←
17:04:47 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: That is the design. The design is about making choices. You get inter op by having a design and limitations.
Jeremy Carroll: That is the design. The design is about making choices. You get inter op by having a design and limitations. ←
17:04:53 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
17:05:32 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: The goal of named graphs was to add the least amount of change to address new use cases.
Jeremy Carroll: The goal of named graphs was to add the least amount of change to address new use cases. ←
17:05:52 <gavinc> JeremyCarroll: I don't see allowing literals in the 4th field to be anything other then us failing to do our jobs
Jeremy Carroll: I don't see allowing literals in the 4th field to be anything other then us failing to do our jobs ←
17:05:53 <AndyS> Does any TriG parser enforce one-use of an IRI to id a graph?
Andy Seaborne: Does any TriG parser enforce one-use of an IRI to id a graph? ←
17:06:51 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
17:06:51 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
17:07:07 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
17:07:19 <AndyS> q+ to ask to finalize escape item
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask to finalize escape item ←
17:07:35 <AZ> If it's doomed to be an IRI, then we should be more precise about what that IRI refers to
Antoine Zimmermann: If it's doomed to be an IRI, then we should be more precise about what that IRI refers to ←
17:07:35 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: the purpose of a standards body is to make decisions in the design
Jeremy Carroll: the purpose of a standards body is to make decisions in the design [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←
17:07:47 <gavinc> pchampin: no one wants to restrict what the 4th column can be
Pierre-Antoine Champin: no one wants to restrict what the 4th column can be ←
17:08:02 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: not to provide general machinery that can be used in a non-interoperable fashion
Jeremy Carroll: not to provide general machinery that can be used in a non-interoperable fashion [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←
17:08:29 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: previous group went for Subject, Predicate, Object as a triple, not three general items
Jeremy Carroll: previous group went for Subject, Predicate, Object as a triple, not three general items [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←
17:08:45 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: we should specify what the 4th column is specifiying
Jeremy Carroll: we should specify what the 4th column is specifiying [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←
17:08:45 <gavinc> pchampin: going back to older proposal graph is not labeled not by an IRI but by a resource
Pierre-Antoine Champin: going back to older proposal graph is not labeled not by an IRI but by a resource ←
17:08:55 <pchampin> ack pa
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ack pa ←
17:09:01 <pchampin> ack pchampin
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ack pchampin ←
17:09:02 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: making it identify the graph is clear and works with the previous spec
Jeremy Carroll: making it identify the graph is clear and works with the previous spec [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←
17:09:41 <gavinc> PatH: I'm sympathetic with JeremyCarroll's position. I like that design. I've been working there for some months, but that it's untenable.
Patrick Hayes: I'm sympathetic with JeremyCarroll's position. I like that design. I've been working there for some months, but that it's untenable. ←
17:09:50 <gavinc> ... quad stores violate that design.
... quad stores violate that design. ←
17:10:09 <gavinc> ... we need to rethink what that 4th position is
... we need to rethink what that 4th position is ←
17:10:17 <gavinc> ... we shouldn't tie ourselves up
... we shouldn't tie ourselves up ←
17:10:48 <pchampin> +1 to pat
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 to pat ←
17:10:52 <gavinc> Guus: If the IRI is not forced to denote, then we should make very clear why it's an IRI
Guus Schreiber: If the IRI is not forced to denote, then we should make very clear why it's an IRI ←
17:11:43 <gavinc> Topic: Back to Escapes
17:11:56 <AndyS> (this discussion invalidates my action 119)
Andy Seaborne: (this discussion invalidates my ACTION-119) ←
17:12:04 <AndyS> The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
Andy Seaborne: The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment). ←
17:12:10 <AndyS> Any generated IRI is still subject to rule governing the legality of IRIs. e.g. og:audio\:title (This does not cover one way or the other (1) adding %xx with unescaped % in PN_LOCAL (2) \u escapes in Turtle)
Andy Seaborne: Any generated IRI is still subject to rule governing the legality of IRIs. e.g. og:audio\:title (This does not cover one way or the other (1) adding %xx with unescaped % in PN_LOCAL (2) \u escapes in Turtle) ←
17:12:23 <PatH> I will escape now:-)
Patrick Hayes: I will escape now:-) ←
17:12:29 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
17:13:58 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
PROPOSED: The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL), the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment). ←
17:13:59 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
17:14:01 <gavinc> +1
+1 ←
17:14:38 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
17:14:38 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
17:15:45 <gavinc> ISSUE-67
17:15:47 <MacTed> The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
Ted Thibodeau: The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment). ←
17:15:48 <gavinc> ISSUE-67
17:15:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-67 -- \xxxx escaping in prefixed names -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-67 -- \xxxx escaping in prefixed names -- open ←
17:15:48 <trackbot> http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/67
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/67 ←
17:16:02 <gavinc> ISSUE-74
17:16:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open ←
17:16:02 <trackbot> http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74 ←
17:16:45 <MacTed> +1 to proposal, with my insert :-)
Ted Thibodeau: +1 to proposal, with my insert :-) ←
17:16:48 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
17:16:48 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
17:17:31 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
PROPOSED: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment). ←
17:17:35 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
17:17:43 <gavinc> +1
+1 ←
17:17:43 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
17:17:59 <AndyS> RESOLVED: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment).
RESOLVED: resolve ISSUE-74 with -- The set of character escapes for the local part of prefix names is ~.-!$&'()*+,;=:/?#@%_ (token: PN_LOCAL); i.e., the set of URI-legal, non-alphanumerics (path, query and fragment). ←
17:18:26 <gavinc> trackbot, end meeting
trackbot, end meeting ←
17:18:26 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
17:18:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, AZ, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc, MacTed, Guus, AlexHall, ericP, +1.850.377.aabb, Arnaud_LeHors,
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Peter_Patel-Schneider, AZ, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, +31.20.598.aaaa, gavinc, MacTed, Guus, AlexHall, ericP, +1.850.377.aabb, Arnaud_LeHors, ←
17:18:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
17:18:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://dristachi.site/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://dristachi.site/2011/11/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot ←
17:18:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
17:18:28 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←
17:18:29 <Zakim> ... charlesgreer, +1.415.586.aacc, JeremyCarroll, PatH, NickH, pchampin, Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: ... charlesgreer, +1.415.586.aacc, JeremyCarroll, PatH, NickH, pchampin, Arnaud ←
17:18:31 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
Formatted by CommonScribe