16:00:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://dristachi.site/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://dristachi.site/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-irc ←
16:00:16 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P10 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P10 is me ←
16:00:16 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
16:00:17 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
16:00:41 <ericP> trackbot, start meeting
Eric Prud'hommeaux: trackbot, start meeting ←
16:00:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
16:00:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
16:00:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now ←
16:00:46 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:00:46 <trackbot> Date: 05 December 2012
16:00:52 <Guus> zakim, mute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, mute me ←
16:00:52 <Zakim> sorry, Guus, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Guus, I don't know what conference this is ←
16:01:06 <ericP> Zakim, this is rdf
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, this is rdf ←
16:01:06 <Zakim> ok, ericP; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:01:12 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
16:01:30 <davidwood> Zakim, this is RDF
David Wood: Zakim, this is RDF ←
16:01:30 <Zakim> davidwood, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:01:31 <Zakim> ok, davidwood; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, davidwood; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:01:41 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
16:01:53 <pchampin_> zakim, ??P14 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P14 is me ←
16:01:53 <Zakim> +pchampin_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin_; got it ←
16:01:55 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
16:01:59 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P15
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P15 ←
16:01:59 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
16:02:02 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
16:02:16 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
16:02:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.540.898.aaaa, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, OpenLink_Software, Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, [GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.540.898.aaaa, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, OpenLink_Software, Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, [GVoice] ←
16:02:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, Arnaud, AndyS, pchampin_, RRSAgent, Zakim, ericP, Guus, gkellogg, manu1, MacTed, davidwood, webr3, trackbot, yvesr, sandro, manu, mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see markus, Arnaud, AndyS, pchampin_, RRSAgent, Zakim, ericP, Guus, gkellogg, manu1, MacTed, davidwood, webr3, trackbot, yvesr, sandro, manu, mischat ←
16:02:24 <davidwood> Zakim, aaaa is me
David Wood: Zakim, aaaa is me ←
16:02:24 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it ←
16:02:25 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, [GVoice] is me ←
16:02:25 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP; got it ←
16:02:26 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
16:02:26 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
16:02:27 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:02:27 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:02:56 <Arnaud> scribe: Arnaud
(Scribe set to Arnaud Le Hors)
16:02:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:03:24 <AndyS> I am muted
Andy Seaborne: I am muted ←
16:03:35 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me ←
16:03:35 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:04:09 <Zakim> +??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27 ←
16:04:09 <Arnaud> topic: Minutes of last meeting
16:04:01 <davidwood> PROPOSED: accept the minutes of the 28 Nov telecon: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-11-28
PROPOSED: accept the minutes of the 28 Nov telecon: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-11-28 ←
16:04:17 <davidwood> RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 28 Nov telecon: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-11-28
RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 28 Nov telecon: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-11-28 ←
16:04:22 <markus> Zakim, ??P27 is me
Markus Lanthaler: Zakim, ??P27 is me ←
16:04:22 <Zakim> +markus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it ←
16:04:26 <Arnaud> topic: Action items
16:04:27 <davidwood> Review of action items
David Wood: Review of action items ←
16:04:27 <davidwood> ▪ http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
David Wood: ▪ http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview ←
16:04:27 <davidwood> ▪ http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
David Wood: ▪ http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open ←
16:04:35 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.05
Ted Thibodeau: MacTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.05 ←
16:04:49 <Arnaud> no pending review
no pending review ←
16:05:12 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
16:05:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, ericP, AndyS, markus
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see davidwood, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, ericP, AndyS, markus ←
16:05:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, Arnaud, AndyS, pchampin_, RRSAgent, Zakim, ericP, Guus, gkellogg, manu1, MacTed, davidwood, webr3, trackbot, yvesr, sandro, manu, mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see markus, Arnaud, AndyS, pchampin_, RRSAgent, Zakim, ericP, Guus, gkellogg, manu1, MacTed, davidwood, webr3, trackbot, yvesr, sandro, manu, mischat ←
16:05:13 <Arnaud> davidwood: anyone claiming credit for any of the open actions?
David Wood: anyone claiming credit for any of the open actions? ←
16:06:03 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.265.aacc ←
16:06:25 <zwu2> zakim,+1.650.265.aacc is me
Zhe Wu: zakim,+1.650.265.aacc is me ←
16:06:25 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it ←
16:06:28 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:06:28 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
16:07:11 <ivan> zakim, code?
Ivan Herman: zakim, code? ←
16:07:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan ←
16:07:16 <Arnaud> davidwood: none, moving on
David Wood: none, moving on ←
16:07:25 <Arnaud> topic: Updating W3C Web Summaries
16:07:35 <Zakim> +ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +ivan ←
16:07:36 <davidwood> Can we update http://dristachi.site/RDF/ ?
David Wood: Can we update http://dristachi.site/RDF/ ? ←
16:07:49 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aadd ←
16:08:24 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
16:08:24 <sandro> sorry I'm late
Sandro Hawke: sorry I'm late ←
16:08:49 <ivan> http://dristachi.site/standards/techs/rdf#w3c_all
Ivan Herman: http://dristachi.site/standards/techs/rdf#w3c_all ←
16:08:54 <Arnaud> ivan: this is wiki so it should be easy to update
Ivan Herman: this is wiki so it should be easy to update ←
16:08:58 <davidwood> Why doesn't http://dristachi.site/standards/techs/rdf#w3c_all list RDFa?
David Wood: Why doesn't http://dristachi.site/standards/techs/rdf#w3c_all list RDFa? ←
16:09:29 <Arnaud> ivan: that page is automatically generated based on some magic formula
Ivan Herman: that page is automatically generated based on some magic formula ←
16:09:50 <Arnaud> sandro: send an email to webmaster to request an update
Sandro Hawke: send an email to webmaster to request an update ←
16:10:28 <markus> Btw. JSON-LD API spec is also missing from the list at http://dristachi.site/standards/techs/rdf#w3c_all
Markus Lanthaler: Btw. JSON-LD API spec is also missing from the list at http://dristachi.site/standards/techs/rdf#w3c_all ←
16:11:18 <davidwood> Action: davidwood to arrange update of http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview and http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
ACTION: davidwood to arrange update of http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview and http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open ←
16:11:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-216 - Arrange update of http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview and http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open [on David Wood - due 2012-12-12].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-216 - Arrange update of http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview and http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open [on David Wood - due 2012-12-12]. ←
16:12:06 <Arnaud> topic: Turtle
16:12:42 <Arnaud> subtopic: test preparations
16:13:12 <ericP> local name //subject/iri/PrefixedName/PNAME_LN
Eric Prud'hommeaux: local name //subject/iri/PrefixedName/PNAME_LN ←
16:13:12 <ericP> objectList with two objects //predicateObjectList[objectList/object[2]]
Eric Prud'hommeaux: objectList with two objects //predicateObjectList[objectList/object[2]] ←
16:13:12 <ericP> predicateObjectList with two objectLists //predicateObjectList[objectList[2]]
Eric Prud'hommeaux: predicateObjectList with two objectLists //predicateObjectList[objectList[2]] ←
16:13:59 <Arnaud> ericp: have been working on a script for testing
Eric Prud'hommeaux: have been working on a script for testing ←
16:14:17 <ericP> dvcs .... /rdf-turtle/coverage/paths
Eric Prud'hommeaux: dvcs .... /rdf-turtle/coverage/paths ←
16:14:26 <ericP> dvcs .... /rdf-turtle/coverage
Eric Prud'hommeaux: dvcs .... /rdf-turtle/coverage ←
16:14:32 <Arnaud> ... should I commit this stuff to mercurial?
... should I commit this stuff to mercurial? ←
16:14:55 <Arnaud> sandro: concerned this will get published
Sandro Hawke: concerned this will get published ←
16:16:24 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
16:16:39 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/ ←
16:17:17 <Arnaud> discussion on where to put eric's stuff
discussion on where to put eric's stuff ←
16:18:46 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:18:46 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:20:13 <Arnaud> ericp: could put a README to give instructions on publication
Eric Prud'hommeaux: could put a README to give instructions on publication ←
16:20:46 <Arnaud> ericp: will create a new directory
Eric Prud'hommeaux: will create a new directory ←
16:20:49 <Arnaud> subtopic: LC comments
16:21:04 <Arnaud> eripc: not sure where we stand on the I18N comments
Eric Prud'hommeaux: not sure where we stand on the I18N comments ←
16:21:16 <Arnaud> ericp: will ping Richard
Eric Prud'hommeaux: will ping Richard Ishida ←
16:21:31 <Arnaud> s/eripc/ericp/
16:21:54 <Arnaud> ivan: we need to give a firm deadline
Ivan Herman: we need to give a firm deadline ←
16:21:56 <ericP> s/will ping Richard/will ping Richard Ishida/
16:22:22 <Arnaud> ivan: you need to go to the chair
Ivan Herman: you need to go to the chair ←
16:23:02 <ericP> is it better to mail the right person who won't respond or the wrong person who will respond?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: is it better to mail the right person who won't respond or the wrong person who will respond? ←
16:23:11 <Arnaud> ... specifying that by December 15 if we don't hear back from them we will consider the issue closed
... specifying that by December 15 if we don't hear back from them we will consider the issue closed ←
16:23:36 <Arnaud> ivan: for Prov they didn't reply
Ivan Herman: for Prov they didn't reply ←
16:24:18 <Arnaud> ericp: ok, will do
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ok, will do ←
16:25:11 <Arnaud> ericp: we have another issue with the grammar we need to figure out what to do with
Eric Prud'hommeaux: we have another issue with the grammar we need to figure out what to do with ←
16:26:35 <Arnaud> ... if we change the grammar I expect we'd have another LC
... if we change the grammar I expect we'd have another LC ←
16:27:12 <Arnaud> ivan: would only be required if there is a design change, don't think this applies
Ivan Herman: would only be required if there is a design change, don't think this applies ←
16:27:31 <Arnaud> ericp: issue is that the language changes
Eric Prud'hommeaux: issue is that the language changes ←
16:28:03 <Arnaud> this is because we didn't manage to make it an LL1 grammar
this is because we didn't manage to make it an LL1 grammar ←
16:28:34 <sandro> AndyS ?
Sandro Hawke: AndyS ? ←
16:28:48 <Arnaud> gkellogg: it's a performance issue
Gregg Kellogg: it's a performance issue ←
16:28:57 <AndyS> Let's be concrete - ptr to rule?
Andy Seaborne: Let's be concrete - ptr to rule? ←
16:29:17 <Arnaud> ericp: in any case the grammar now appears to be different, allows n trailing semi colons
Eric Prud'hommeaux: in any case the grammar now appears to be different, allows n trailing semi colons ←
16:29:21 <gkellogg> [7] predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (";" (predicateObjectList)?)*
Gregg Kellogg: [7] predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (";" (predicateObjectList)?)* ←
16:29:58 <Arnaud> ericp: need to dig back into the history
Eric Prud'hommeaux: need to dig back into the history ←
16:30:21 <Arnaud> sandro: still don't think this qualifies for 2nd LC
Sandro Hawke: still don't think this qualifies for 2nd LC ←
16:30:29 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:31:27 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:31:28 <Arnaud> ivan: according to ralph we could make note of the change when going to CR and still go to CR
Ivan Herman: according to ralph we could make note of the change when going to CR and still go to CR ←
16:31:29 <sandro> Ivan: quoting Ralph Swick -- how about we just make this AT RISK then we can go to CR without solving this first
Ivan Herman: quoting Ralph Swick -- how about we just make this AT RISK then we can go to CR without solving this first [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:31:34 <AndyS> eric wants something more ... non recursive which is a tool issue.
Andy Seaborne: eric wants something more ... non recursive which is a tool issue. ←
16:31:50 <PatH> Well, that was easy.
Patrick Hayes: Well, that was easy. ←
16:32:13 <Arnaud> ivan: this is a corner case that doesn't seem worth losing weeks over
Ivan Herman: this is a corner case that doesn't seem worth losing weeks over ←
16:32:27 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:32:40 <Arnaud> ... very few implementers will actually be impacted
... very few implementers will actually be impacted ←
16:32:43 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
16:32:56 <gkellogg> Andy's rule: predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (";" (predicateObjectList)?)?
Gregg Kellogg: Andy's rule: predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (";" (predicateObjectList)?)? ←
16:33:02 <Arnaud> andys: this matters to people who automatically produce data
Andy Seaborne: this matters to people who automatically produce data ←
16:33:29 <Arnaud> sandro: as a user I would like the freedom of adding extra semi colons
Sandro Hawke: as a user I would like the freedom of adding extra semi colons ←
16:33:40 <Arnaud> gkellogg: I agree
Gregg Kellogg: I agree ←
16:34:29 <Arnaud> ericp: we need to figure this out to exit LC
Eric Prud'hommeaux: we need to figure this out to exit LC ←
16:34:48 <sandro> http://dristachi.site/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-predicateObjectList
Sandro Hawke: http://dristachi.site/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-predicateObjectList ←
16:35:41 <Arnaud> LC rule has a * at the end: predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (';' predicateObjectList?)*
LC rule has a * at the end: predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (';' predicateObjectList?)* ←
16:35:53 <gkellogg> [7] predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList ( ";" ( verb objectList)? )*
Gregg Kellogg: [7] predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList ( ";" ( verb objectList)? )* ←
16:36:26 <PatH> It's semicolons all the way down.
Patrick Hayes: It's semicolons all the way down. ←
16:36:55 <sandro> In LC: predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (';' predicateObjectList?)*
Sandro Hawke: In LC: predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (';' predicateObjectList?)* ←
16:37:31 <Arnaud> andys: we should focus on what we want, instead of what we have
Andy Seaborne: we should focus on what we want, instead of what we have ←
16:37:42 <Arnaud> ... do we want to allow multiple semi colons or not?
... do we want to allow multiple semi colons or not? ←
16:38:58 <sandro> sandro: lets do test cases that have multiple and trailing semicolons
Sandro Hawke: lets do test cases that have multiple and trailing semicolons [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:39:28 <PatH> allowing <anything> has obvious advantages. Are there any reasons to prohibit multiple semicolons? If not, I suggest we decide to allow them.
Patrick Hayes: allowing <anything> has obvious advantages. Are there any reasons to prohibit multiple semicolons? If not, I suggest we decide to allow them. ←
16:39:35 <Arnaud> ericp: we had one that worked as LR1, changed for LL1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: we had one that worked as LR1, changed for LL1 ←
16:39:41 <AndyS> SPARQL allows multiple semis
Andy Seaborne: SPARQL allows multiple semis ←
16:39:56 <AndyS> therefore I think Turtle should.
Andy Seaborne: therefore I think Turtle should. ←
16:40:38 <Arnaud> ericp: concerned about what it will do to people who write tools
Eric Prud'hommeaux: concerned about what it will do to people who write tools ←
16:41:03 <Arnaud> sandro: can we resolve on doing test cases for this?
Sandro Hawke: can we resolve on doing test cases for this? ←
16:41:56 <Arnaud> sandro: would like to have a resolution on what is allowed and not allowed, then see if we can get a grammar that matches it
Sandro Hawke: would like to have a resolution on what is allowed and not allowed, then see if we can get a grammar that matches it ←
16:42:18 <Arnaud> ericp: would rather try to figure out the grammar
Eric Prud'hommeaux: would rather try to figure out the grammar ←
16:42:36 <Arnaud> sandro: can you write test cases so I can test my implementation?
Sandro Hawke: can you write test cases so I can test my implementation? ←
16:42:40 <AndyS> If it is LL(1) it is LALR(1) if the first part of the rule is clean (the trailing part is irrelevant)
Andy Seaborne: If it is LL(1) it is LALR(1) if the first part of the rule is clean (the trailing part is irrelevant) ←
16:42:40 <Arnaud> ericp: yes
Eric Prud'hommeaux: yes ←
16:43:08 <ericP> <a> <b> <c> ; ;
Eric Prud'hommeaux: <a> <b> <c> ; ; ←
16:43:22 <ericP> <a> <b> <c> ; ; .
Eric Prud'hommeaux: <a> <b> <c> ; ; . ←
16:44:16 <PatH> wherever we are, I vote for it.
Patrick Hayes: wherever we are, I vote for it. ←
16:44:32 <Arnaud> ericp: will send mail to I18N giving a week for replying
Eric Prud'hommeaux: will send mail to I18N giving a week for replying ←
16:44:35 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:44:40 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
16:44:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, ericP, AndyS, markus, zwu2 (muted), ivan, +1.603.897.aadd, Sandro, PatH (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see davidwood, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, ericP, AndyS, markus, zwu2 (muted), ivan, +1.603.897.aadd, Sandro, PatH (muted) ←
16:44:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, PatH, Souri, ivan, zwu2, markus, Arnaud, AndyS, pchampin_, RRSAgent, Zakim, ericP, Guus, gkellogg, manu1, MacTed, davidwood, webr3, trackbot, yvesr, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AlexHall, PatH, Souri, ivan, zwu2, markus, Arnaud, AndyS, pchampin_, RRSAgent, Zakim, ericP, Guus, gkellogg, manu1, MacTed, davidwood, webr3, trackbot, yvesr, sandro, ←
16:44:43 <Zakim> ... manu, mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu, mischat ←
16:44:47 <Arnaud> ... if we figure out the grammar by next week we can then publish
... if we figure out the grammar by next week we can then publish ←
16:44:49 <sandro> ACTION: sandro to produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ."
ACTION: sandro to produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ." ←
16:44:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-217 - Produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ." [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-12-12].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-217 - Produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ." [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-12-12]. ←
16:45:04 <AndyS> Err - the submission was LALR(1)
Andy Seaborne: Err - the submission was LALR(1) ←
16:45:37 <Arnaud> ericp: yes, but we changed it since then
Eric Prud'hommeaux: yes, but we changed it since then ←
16:45:53 <Arnaud> topic: JSON-LD
16:46:22 <markus> https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/157
Markus Lanthaler: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/157 ←
16:46:31 <Arnaud> markus: most controversial is issue-157
Markus Lanthaler: most controversial is ISSUE-157 ←
16:46:36 <markus> http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/index.html#data-model
Markus Lanthaler: http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/index.html#data-model ←
16:47:22 <Arnaud> markus: trying to reuse the same terminology but there still are some differences
Markus Lanthaler: trying to reuse the same terminology but there still are some differences ←
16:47:29 <markus> http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/index.html#relationship-to-rdf
Markus Lanthaler: http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/index.html#relationship-to-rdf ←
16:48:06 <Arnaud> markus: also blank nodes are allowed as graph names, which isn't allowed in RDF
Markus Lanthaler: also blank nodes are allowed as graph names, which isn't allowed in RDF ←
16:48:25 <ericP> can a datatype be a bnode?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: can a datatype be a bnode? ←
16:48:44 <Arnaud> markus: trying to address that with a note stating people shouldn't create such graphs
Markus Lanthaler: trying to address that with a note stating people shouldn't create such graphs ←
16:48:46 <PatH> eric: no.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: no. [ Scribe Assist by Patrick Hayes ] ←
16:48:59 <ericP> PatH, sorry, i meant in JSON-LD
Eric Prud'hommeaux: PatH, sorry, i meant in JSON-LD ←
16:49:09 <sandro> sandro: how about "it's not a JSON-LD document if it has a free-standing node"
Sandro Hawke: how about "it's not a JSON-LD document if it has a free-standing node" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:49:11 <AndyS> can a graph name be a literal?
Andy Seaborne: can a graph name be a literal? ←
16:49:15 <PatH> Not inside a typed lieral, anyway.
Patrick Hayes: Not inside a typed lieral, anyway. ←
16:49:30 <PatH> OK
Patrick Hayes: OK ←
16:49:44 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
16:50:05 <Arnaud> sandro: why do you use SHOULD instead of MUST?
Sandro Hawke: why do you use SHOULD instead of MUST? ←
16:50:27 <Arnaud> markus: trying to remain permissive
Markus Lanthaler: trying to remain permissive ←
16:50:51 <Arnaud> sandro: SHOULDs are trouble, and I see more value in aligning with RDF
Sandro Hawke: SHOULDs are trouble, and I see more value in aligning with RDF ←
16:51:07 <Arnaud> sandro: not a showstopper but I would vote no
Sandro Hawke: not a showstopper but I would vote no ←
16:51:23 <Arnaud> sandro: looks good otherwise
Sandro Hawke: looks good otherwise ←
16:51:28 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:51:37 <Arnaud> markus: other minor differences, like lists
Markus Lanthaler: other minor differences, like lists ←
16:51:38 <davidwood> q+ re the JSON-LD data model
David Wood: q+ re the JSON-LD data model ←
16:51:53 <Arnaud> markus: in json-ld there are arrays
Markus Lanthaler: in json-ld there are arrays ←
16:52:22 <Arnaud> markus: other issue is about graph vs dataset
Markus Lanthaler: other issue is about graph vs dataset ←
16:52:25 <davidwood> ack davidwood
David Wood: ack davidwood ←
16:52:25 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to discuss the JSON-LD data model
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to discuss the JSON-LD data model ←
16:52:30 <davidwood> "Summarized these differences mean that JSON-LD is capable of serializing any RDF graph or dataset and most, but not all, JSON-LD documents can be transformed to RDF. "
David Wood: "Summarized these differences mean that JSON-LD is capable of serializing any RDF graph or dataset and most, but not all, JSON-LD documents can be transformed to RDF. " ←
16:53:01 <Arnaud> davidwood: this statement means to me that there is still a significant difference despite the effort to minimize the diff
David Wood: this statement means to me that there is still a significant difference despite the effort to minimize the diff ←
16:53:12 <Arnaud> davidwood: is that a fundamental issue?
David Wood: is that a fundamental issue? ←
16:53:33 <Arnaud> davidwood: or just syntactic?
David Wood: or just syntactic? ←
16:53:37 <Arnaud> markus: not sure
Markus Lanthaler: not sure ←
16:54:12 <Arnaud> davidwood: if you state in the spec the difference is merely syntactic we don't have a problem
David Wood: if you state in the spec the difference is merely syntactic we don't have a problem ←
16:54:17 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
16:54:17 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
16:54:28 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:54:38 <PatH> Yup.
Patrick Hayes: Yup. ←
16:54:56 <Arnaud> markus: but I don't think we can just reuse the RDF data model, because of where we allow blank nodes
Markus Lanthaler: but I don't think we can just reuse the RDF data model, because of where we allow blank nodes ←
16:55:05 <sandro> davidwood: is there a reason you need to allow blank nodes there?
David Wood: is there a reason you need to allow blank nodes there? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:55:18 <sandro> gkellogg: it would be complicated to prevent
Gregg Kellogg: it would be complicated to prevent [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:55:27 <sandro> davidwood: lots of RDF tools don't prevent it either.
David Wood: lots of RDF tools don't prevent it either. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:56:31 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
16:56:35 <Arnaud> gkellogg: if we don't need to enforce this in the algos then I think we can do that
Gregg Kellogg: if we don't need to enforce this in the algos then I think we can do that ←
16:56:38 <sandro> I'm also happy with the algorithms allowing it.
Sandro Hawke: I'm also happy with the algorithms allowing it. ←
16:58:30 <AndyS> RDF/XML does not allow bNodes as predicates ... easy to add to Turtle, RDF/XML less so.
Andy Seaborne: RDF/XML does not allow bNodes as predicates ... easy to add to Turtle, RDF/XML less so. ←
16:59:05 <Arnaud> PatH: json-ld doesn't have the same limitations as RDF and it allows users to experiment, don't think we should discourage that
Patrick Hayes: json-ld doesn't have the same limitations as RDF and it allows users to experiment, don't think we should discourage that ←
16:59:11 <manu> zakim, code?
Manu Sporny: zakim, code? ←
16:59:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu ←
16:59:23 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
16:59:27 <manu> zakim, I am ??P26
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P26 ←
16:59:27 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
16:59:41 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
17:00:37 <Arnaud> sandro: could have a strict mode
Sandro Hawke: could have a strict mode ←
17:00:48 <Arnaud> markus: that creates interoperability problems
Markus Lanthaler: that creates interoperability problems ←
17:00:49 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
17:00:49 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
17:01:06 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
17:02:02 <Arnaud> andys: this isn't just about parsers, it also affects about data producers
Andy Seaborne: this isn't just parsers, it also affects data producers ←
17:02:10 <Arnaud> s/about//
17:02:28 <AndyS> So does this matter: receive JSON-LD -> publish Turtle -> someone else converts to JSON-LD
Andy Seaborne: So does this matter: receive JSON-LD -> publish Turtle -> someone else converts to JSON-LD ←
17:02:39 <Arnaud> davidwood: where does that this leave us?
David Wood: where does that this leave us? ←
17:02:53 <Arnaud> sandro: not happy but don't blame them for doing this
Sandro Hawke: not happy but don't blame them for doing this ←
17:03:07 <Arnaud> ivan: I can live with it
Ivan Herman: I can live with it ←
17:03:24 <Arnaud> sandro: would like a procedure check, maybe consider that AT RISK
Sandro Hawke: would like a procedure check, maybe consider that AT RISK ←
17:04:02 <Arnaud> davidwood: could certainly prompt the community for feedback on whether this is really a problem
David Wood: could certainly prompt the community for feedback on whether this is really a problem ←
17:05:00 <Arnaud> ivan: could say that the algos only work for generalized triples
Ivan Herman: could say that the algos only work for generalized triples ←
17:05:17 <Arnaud> ... but ok with leaving it as is
... but ok with leaving it as is ←
17:05:23 <Arnaud> ... not a showstopper for me
... not a showstopper for me ←
17:05:29 <markus> https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/182
Markus Lanthaler: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/182 ←
17:05:31 <Arnaud> markus: another thing is graph vs dataset
Markus Lanthaler: another thing is graph vs dataset ←
17:05:46 <markus> http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/index.html#relationship-to-rdf
Markus Lanthaler: http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/index.html#relationship-to-rdf ←
17:05:54 <sandro> Essential -- is JSON restricted to RDF, or is it Generalized RDF Triples? *shrug* Either way is okay with me, but GRT will cause some big problems, I'm sure.
Sandro Hawke: Essential -- is JSON restricted to RDF, or is it Generalized RDF Triples? *shrug* Either way is okay with me, but GRT will cause some big problems, I'm sure. ←
17:06:15 <Arnaud> markus: resolved it saying a json-ld doc can be used as a graph store
Markus Lanthaler: resolved it saying a json-ld doc can be used as a graph store ←
17:06:34 <Arnaud> ivan: how do I find out whether the doc I get from the web is a graph or dataset?
Ivan Herman: how do I find out whether the doc I get from the web is a graph or dataset? ←
17:06:51 <Arnaud> markus: it's always a dataset with json-ld
Markus Lanthaler: it's always a dataset with json-ld ←
17:07:04 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
17:07:08 <PatH> I like that. Everything on the Web is a dataset. that makes perfect sense.
Patrick Hayes: I like that. Everything on the Web is a dataset. that makes perfect sense. ←
17:07:16 <Arnaud> ivan: whether it's in the default graph is up to the application
Ivan Herman: whether it's in the default graph is up to the application ←
17:07:19 <Arnaud> markus: yes
Markus Lanthaler: yes ←
17:07:23 <PatH> LOL
Patrick Hayes: LOL ←
17:07:51 <sandro> issue-105?
17:07:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-105 -- Graphs, datasets, authoritative representations, and content negotiation -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-105 -- Graphs, datasets, authoritative representations, and content negotiation -- open ←
17:07:51 <trackbot> http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/105
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/105 ←
17:08:34 <yvesr> PatH, but then we might need to group datasets together or track their provenance, and we end up with datasets of datasets :)
Yves Raimond: PatH, but then we might need to group datasets together or track their provenance, and we end up with datasets of datasets :) ←
17:09:10 <Arnaud> sandro: I think proposed resolution would work, can we use the same thing for TRIG?
Sandro Hawke: I think proposed resolution would work, can we use the same thing for TRIG? ←
17:09:41 <Arnaud> gkellogg: I think the solution we came up with for json-ld should work generically
Gregg Kellogg: I think the solution we came up with for json-ld should work generically ←
17:10:00 <Arnaud> markus: will send an email on that to the mailing list later
Markus Lanthaler: will send an email on that to the mailing list later ←
17:10:22 <Arnaud> sandro: I think there is an issue with that but will get it in email
Sandro Hawke: I think there is an issue with that but will get it in email ←
17:10:28 <AndyS> TriG isn't a grammar superset of TTL so works less cleanly.
Andy Seaborne: TriG isn't a grammar superset of TTL so works less cleanly. ←
17:11:30 <Arnaud> markus: algos are still first in the spec but not as prominent anymore
Markus Lanthaler: algos are still first in the spec but not as prominent anymore ←
17:11:39 <Arnaud> ivan: what about compliance section?
Ivan Herman: what about compliance section? ←
17:12:06 <Arnaud> markus: define two products: 1: compliant to algos, 2: compliant to algos and apis
Markus Lanthaler: define two products: 1: compliant to algos, 2: compliant to algos and apis ←
17:13:07 <Arnaud> ivan: I think the approach to separate json-ld processor is fine
Ivan Herman: I think the approach to separate json-ld processor is fine ←
17:13:27 <Arnaud> ... I'm fine with the content of the document but not the title
... I'm fine with the content of the document but not the title ←
17:13:44 <Arnaud> markus: I think that's something the wg can address
Markus Lanthaler: I think that's something the wg can address ←
17:14:05 <Arnaud> ... any suggestions?
... any suggestions? ←
17:14:17 <Arnaud> ivan: needs alcohol for that :)
Ivan Herman: needs alcohol for that :) ←
17:14:17 <PatH> I have to leave. Use it well.
Patrick Hayes: I have to leave. Use it well. ←
17:14:22 <markus> https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/178
Markus Lanthaler: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/178 ←
17:14:32 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
17:15:20 <Arnaud> davidwood: any other business for today?
David Wood: any other business for today? ←
17:15:27 <Zakim> -ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -ivan ←
17:15:28 <Arnaud> davidwood: meeting adjourned
David Wood: meeting adjourned ←
17:15:29 <zwu2> bye
17:15:29 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
17:15:32 <Zakim> -manu
Zakim IRC Bot: -manu ←
17:15:33 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
17:15:33 <Zakim> -yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr ←
17:15:34 <Zakim> -markus
Zakim IRC Bot: -markus ←
17:15:34 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
17:15:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
17:15:35 <Zakim> -pchampin_
Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin_ ←
17:15:35 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
17:15:35 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
17:15:37 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.603.897.aadd ←
17:15:37 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
17:15:57 <manu> great work on the call today, markus! :)
Manu Sporny: great work on the call today, markus! :) ←
17:16:12 <markus> thanks :-)
Markus Lanthaler: thanks :-) ←
17:16:19 <manu> (as well as all of the editing work you've been doing - great job all around!) :)
Manu Sporny: (as well as all of the editing work you've been doing - great job all around!) :) ←
17:16:43 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting ←
17:16:43 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
17:16:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.540.898.aaaa, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, davidwood, ericP, MacTed, AndyS, markus, zwu2, ivan, +1.603.897.aadd,
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been +1.540.898.aaaa, +31.20.598.aabb, yvesr, Arnaud, pchampin_, gkellogg, davidwood, ericP, MacTed, AndyS, markus, zwu2, ivan, +1.603.897.aadd, ←
17:16:46 <Zakim> ... Sandro, PatH, manu
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Sandro, PatH, manu ←
17:16:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
17:16:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://dristachi.site/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://dristachi.site/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot ←
17:16:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
17:16:52 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://dristachi.site/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 2 open action items saved in http://dristachi.site/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-actions.rdf : ←
17:16:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: davidwood to arrange update of http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview and http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open [1]
ACTION: davidwood to arrange update of http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview and http://dristachi.site/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open [1] ←
17:16:52 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://dristachi.site/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-irc#T16-11-18
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://dristachi.site/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-irc#T16-11-18 ←
17:16:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: sandro to produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ." [2]
ACTION: sandro to produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ." [2] ←
17:16:52 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://dristachi.site/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-irc#T16-44-49
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://dristachi.site/2012/12/05-rdf-wg-irc#T16-44-49 ←
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